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> You're struggling because you are selling chat as a service. Yeaaahhh I used to think that. Until I expanded to Asia. Chats as platforms and general portals

> You're struggling because you are selling chat as a service. Yeaaahhh I used to think that. Until I expanded to Asia. Chats as platforms and general portals to the internet is pretty amazing, despite the drawbacks to the centralized control that some of the chat app implementations. For the last several years when I open a new business bank account for an online-only service and the banker asks for my website, I correctly tell them I don't have one, as everything happens over chat apps, and "websites" are an antiquated, useless, unnecessary form of validation for North American and European markets for a pyramid of ad/web design/tracking services and are simply not a barrier in selling a product online. Bots for slack/discord/telegram and platforms in asian markets all leverage pretty robust environments. Whereas in the past (and many people still do this) it was necessary to build a whole website and your own platform with the hope of reaching users like with mobile apps that have so much friction to reaching you. Can they complement each other? sure. But you should just keep selling those shovels to other companies stuck in the last decade, while building something with much lower barriers and efficiencies for yourself. I think Slack is on the right track. They can monetize their api and bot marketplace.

mercer 6y ago
Perhaps that supports OP's general claim though? I've been excited about what the general 'chat UI' can accommodate and love API's like that of Telegram that allow a ton of custom UI and functionality that augment chatbots. And it's been frustrating to learn how in Asia this unified interface offers portals to tons of stuff that in the west I need to visit (shitty) websites for (putting aside the issue of the web technically being more open than something like WeChat). My impression is that Slack hasn't really done much to try and bring the 'chat UI' to the masses, even though they have a lot of power to try and do so. Telegram seems to have done more, including of course native desktop apps that I feel comfortable having open all the time. While it's true that other chat-offering companies haven't done much either (WhatsApp doesn't even have bots?), or perhaps it's just really hard to change a culture, it still feels like Slack could've put a ton more effort in trying to bring what's clearly working in Asia to Europe/US/etc. I might be wrong though; I've mostly been reading up on this on occasion and never really dove into any of it beyond building Telegram bots to scratch my own itch. But I picked Telegram because it has much better apps for all my devices, so there's that at least. By all means correct me though. I really, really want chat-based solutions to so many things. It's nice, for example, to be able finally order most of my takeout online with so much less friction than in the past. But it feels silly to have to make an account with at least two providers, open their 'bespoke' apps or website, learn their UI, and so on, when I'd much prefer having an ongoing 'conversation' with the restaurants of my choice where, say, I can re-order an earlier order or pre-populate an order by scrolling up the chat history and picking an order I liked. or to be able to chat with the courier/restaurant about delivery rather than having to deal with whatever shitty home-built interface the restaurant or delivery service offers.
- vmception 6y ago
  I think Slack’s focus on enterprise is good enough, it doesn’t really have to address those failings and is viable enough by getting corporations to pay for seats, and then pay for bots, and have devs pay for api and analytics. If paying for seats goes out of vogue, they have the other things and its an okay niche.
- u801e 6y ago
  > Chain restaurants and fast food restaurants have had online ordering for quite sometime. Many of them don't require creating an account to order. How does a chat based solution lead to a better experience compared to an established website? > I'd much prefer having an ongoing 'conversation' with the restaurants of my choice That sounds a lot like ordering over the phone.
s_dev 6y ago
>I think Slack is on the right track. If the Developed world can't afford Slack what chance has the Developing world really got? Slack wants €200 for a 15 member team or somthing. Per month. While Google will sell us all the same stuff and more (GDrive, Corporate Email, GCalendar, Hangouts Chat etc) for a lower price (GSuite), all of which we need anyway.
- edoceo 6y ago
  You can put over 500 people Mattermost for $5/mo. And it's easy to get tightly integrated to your corporate environment - and even allow clients as temp-guest accounts for support. Coding the custom solution around Mattermost cost less than one year of Slack and in year three we're still happy with it
  - s_dev 6y ago
    Completely agree -- Mattermost is a great option for anyone. I'm shocked more people haven't adopted it. People need to get real. Slack is absolutely bonkers expensive. It may be the case that SV companies are happy to pay this price but you'll limit your market to SV. Slack is definitely finding it harder to grow -- they'll end up like DropBox.
- kbar13 6y ago
  2020 and 3 of top 5 economies in the world are Asian and you are still saying developed vs undeveloped countries. Update your biases please.
  - vmception 6y ago
    Is that because the asian countries are undeveloped and it therefore wouldn't be an biased thing to say? Its not clear what point you are making to me.
the_duke 6y ago
I've heard enthusiasm about these Asian "universal chat apps" several times now. Any recommendation for experiencing it? Can we get some of them on Western app stores , and still get a representative experience with integrations?
- vmception 6y ago
  WeChat but you need a mainland Chinese citizen to verify your QR code which only lasts 10-20 minutes. Even Hong Kongers can't verify non-Chinese citizens. I was able to get this in San Francisco with relative ease, and when I accidentally gave the CCP my address book, pretty much all my asian contacts were already on it. Maybe also easy to get verified with the student body of major universities. For an example, most recently, I was trying to verify a client exists and couldn't find anything on Google, but when I had the mental spark to check WeChat they had a whole business page, lots of updates, easily accessible representatives, followers, accolades, etc.

mercer 6y ago

Perhaps that supports OP's general claim though? I've been excited about what the general 'chat UI' can accommodate and love API's like that of Telegram that allow a ton of custom UI and functionality that augment chatbots. And it's been frustrating to learn how in Asia this unified interface offers portals to tons of stuff that in the west I need to visit (shitty) websites for (putting aside the issue of the web technically being more open than something like WeChat). My impression is that Slack hasn't really done much to try and bring the 'chat UI' to the masses, even though they have a lot of power to try and do so. Telegram seems to have done more, including of course native desktop apps that I feel comfortable having open all the time. While it's true that other chat-offering companies haven't done much either (WhatsApp doesn't even have bots?), or perhaps it's just really hard to change a culture, it still feels like Slack could've put a ton more effort in trying to bring what's clearly working in Asia to Europe/US/etc. I might be wrong though; I've mostly been reading up on this on occasion and never really dove into any of it beyond building Telegram bots to scratch my own itch. But I picked Telegram because it has much better apps for all my devices, so there's that at least. By all means correct me though. I really, really want chat-based solutions to so many things. It's nice, for example, to be able finally order most of my takeout online with so much less friction than in the past. But it feels silly to have to make an account with at least two providers, open their 'bespoke' apps or website, learn their UI, and so on, when I'd much prefer having an ongoing 'conversation' with the restaurants of my choice where, say, I can re-order an earlier order or pre-populate an order by scrolling up the chat history and picking an order I liked. or to be able to chat with the courier/restaurant about delivery rather than having to deal with whatever shitty home-built interface the restaurant or delivery service offers.

vmception 6y ago
I think Slack’s focus on enterprise is good enough, it doesn’t really have to address those failings and is viable enough by getting corporations to pay for seats, and then pay for bots, and have devs pay for api and analytics. If paying for seats goes out of vogue, they have the other things and its an okay niche.
u801e 6y ago
> Chain restaurants and fast food restaurants have had online ordering for quite sometime. Many of them don't require creating an account to order. How does a chat based solution lead to a better experience compared to an established website? > I'd much prefer having an ongoing 'conversation' with the restaurants of my choice That sounds a lot like ordering over the phone.

s_dev 6y ago

>I think Slack is on the right track. If the Developed world can't afford Slack what chance has the Developing world really got? Slack wants €200 for a 15 member team or somthing. Per month. While Google will sell us all the same stuff and more (GDrive, Corporate Email, GCalendar, Hangouts Chat etc) for a lower price (GSuite), all of which we need anyway.

edoceo 6y ago
You can put over 500 people Mattermost for $5/mo. And it's easy to get tightly integrated to your corporate environment - and even allow clients as temp-guest accounts for support. Coding the custom solution around Mattermost cost less than one year of Slack and in year three we're still happy with it
- s_dev 6y ago
  Completely agree -- Mattermost is a great option for anyone. I'm shocked more people haven't adopted it. People need to get real. Slack is absolutely bonkers expensive. It may be the case that SV companies are happy to pay this price but you'll limit your market to SV. Slack is definitely finding it harder to grow -- they'll end up like DropBox.
kbar13 6y ago
2020 and 3 of top 5 economies in the world are Asian and you are still saying developed vs undeveloped countries. Update your biases please.
- vmception 6y ago
  Is that because the asian countries are undeveloped and it therefore wouldn't be an biased thing to say? Its not clear what point you are making to me.

the_duke 6y ago

I've heard enthusiasm about these Asian "universal chat apps" several times now. Any recommendation for experiencing it? Can we get some of them on Western app stores , and still get a representative experience with integrations?

vmception 6y ago
WeChat but you need a mainland Chinese citizen to verify your QR code which only lasts 10-20 minutes. Even Hong Kongers can't verify non-Chinese citizens. I was able to get this in San Francisco with relative ease, and when I accidentally gave the CCP my address book, pretty much all my asian contacts were already on it. Maybe also easy to get verified with the student body of major universities. For an example, most recently, I was trying to verify a client exists and couldn't find anything on Google, but when I had the mental spark to check WeChat they had a whole business page, lots of updates, easily accessible representatives, followers, accolades, etc.