5 ms·

> You're going to end up with a bunch of rich white dudes as founders Why not just say "rich dudes" ? That is the qualifier. The race might be true too, but i

> You're going to end up with a bunch of rich white dudes as founders Why not just say "rich dudes" ? That is the qualifier. The race might be true too, but it's not what defines the argument.

andreilys 6y ago
There’s very little penalty in doing so and scores points in some circles.
polk 6y ago
I'm surprised you find the race unnecessary, but continue to include the gender. "Rich people" would be all that's required.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- fnordsensei 6y ago
  Isn’t a random sample out of the set of rich people going to yield a lot of whiteness and dudeness though?
- kylec 6y ago
  I’m surprised you find the gender unnecessary, but continue to include the species. “Rich individuals” would be all that’s required.
- steffandroid 6y ago
  The problem with "rich people" as a phrase is that most rich people don't think of themselves as rich - for example, only 13% of millionaires do [1]. As "white dudes" are disproportionately represented within this demographic, I think the inclusion of these qualifiers helps to illustrate the point. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/most-millionaires-dont-think-they-are-rich-2019-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/most-millionaires-dont-think...
- stronglikedan 6y ago
  The term "dudes" is not specific (colloquially, anyway) like "white".
beervirus 6y ago
white man bad.
pantaloony 6y ago
A lot of those sorts of phrases become automatic even when they don’t make much sense. A bit like “African American” accidentally being used as a label for people who aren’t American at all. Right now throwing in “white” and “men” is kinda automatic with “rich” even when the “rich” part is the main thing that matters, as here. [edit] Jesus, this is a real issue one has to look out for when writing and speaking: falling into using easy, worn phrases when they’re less effective at communicating what you’re trying to say than an alternative, and often explains these cases of overreach or somewhat “off” usage with cliché phrases, which was what was asked about. It’s very easy to let one’s fingers type right through a worn rut, once one starts into it, when some reflection might reveal that was a bit off. Struck a nerve for some reason, I guess? I have exactly no idea why.
hardwaregeek 6y ago
You might get some Asians as well but white households have 10x the wealth of Black households and 8x the wealth of Hispanic households. Restricting to the wealthy will restrict to primarily white and Asian. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/01/how-wealth-inequality-has-changed-in-the-u-s-since-the-great-recession-by-race-ethnicity-and-income/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/01/how-wealth-...
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  Asians aren't very represented in corporate leadership. https://hbr.org/2018/05/asian-americans-are-the-least-likely-group-in-the-u-s-to-be-promoted-to-management https://hbr.org/2018/05/asian-americans-are-the-least-likely...
sp332 6y ago
Access to capital is partly based on social and professional networks, which are harder for black people to access. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/07/22/black-entrepreneurs-venture-capital/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/07/22/black-e...
demarq 6y ago
Sure, tons of black people are using pelotons...
awillen 6y ago
Most of them will be white - basic statistics bear that out. Since my point was that it's incredibly detrimental to diversity, it's obviously relevant to it. If you want to make an argument for something, go nuts, but don't come tell me what defines my own argument. Also, stuff like this is problematic for diversity - you're pretending that race is somehow irrelevant in discussions of socioeconomic status, when in fact it is very much so. "It doesn't matter that they're white, it just matters that they're rich" very much misses some highly relevant big picture info.
- kkolanm 6y ago
  A wealthy black person can easily start their own business. They may have some advantages and disadvantages vs a wealthy white person but nothing can stop them doing it. They have money. A wealthy Black person is a “have” not a “have not.” A poor white person cannot use their whiteness to pay the bills. Ask millions of white people why they work shitty jobs if you think being white solves economic problems. They can’t stop working their shifty job to participate in YC if they lowered their investment. A wealthy black founder very obviously could. Clearly the deciding factor is socioeconomic and not race. So you’re just wrong to talk about racial diversity when the issue is clearly socioeconomic diversity. The absolute proof is that increased economic diversity necessarily results in increased racial diversity. Contrarily, increased racial diversity does not necessarily result in socioeconomic diversity. Because one is the root cause of the other. Your thinking is what leads to “diverse” organizations where many racial and gender groups are represented but they’re all rich people that attended Ivy League schools. And that is not diversity by any meaningful definition. It does nothing to alleviate systemic unfairness.
  - awillen 6y ago
    Please show me some organizations that are a bunch of rich white people who all attended Ivy League schools but are otherwise highly diverse (race, gender, etc.). That's the problem - you're talking in theory (obviously there are rich black people and they have resources) while ignoring practical reality, which is that race and socioeconomic status are highly correlated to the point where you can't just magically ignore the latter and somehow equitably deal with the former.
hinkley 6y ago
Because intersectionality cuts both ways and we've only been talking about one of them. By the new definition of 'middle class' (which now includes people up to their eyeballs in debt), the middle class would call me a 'rich dude' even though millionaires would tolerate my presence at an event but not be that happy about it. I see this every time I am given bad news about a large bill for the vet or repairs and they are visibly surprised when I just reach for the wallet instead of argue. You are a rich dude, dude. But I've noticed that I am comfortable in other situations where my white dude peers are not and it's because I belong to other privilege groups that they don't. Like physicality. Which I think speaks to how people react when you point out their privileges, because there is always somebody who has it better off and if you are jealous of other people, it rots your brain. Sympathizing with people who are jealous of you while you are insanely jealous of others takes some internal work that people don't want to do.
santoshalper 6y ago
You are correct that the defining selection criteria is wealth. However, white people are disproportionately wealthy in the United States, so indirectly you will also have a racial bias in your outcomes as well. When winning leads to more winning - groups that have won disproportionately in the past (white people) will continue to win more and more unless we find a way to counterbalance. This is why almost every sport includes some kind of catch-up model for their franchises (better draft picks for performing teams, salary caps) to encourage balance and competitiveness. We accept this in sports and know that it helps, but we don't want to believe it is needed in our economy, which is the most important competitive sport played in the world.
fourstar 6y ago
Because he's virtue signaling. From this guy's blog: > Those of you who know me know that I’m a self-described brunch enthusiast. This more or less means that I go to bottomless brunch at a new place in SF every weekend. > As a tech bro in San Francisco (San Franciscbro?), it was only a matter of time until I had the obvious thought – “How can I monetize brunch?” I’ve been meaning to dabble in SEO at some point, both because I generally enjoy dabbling and because it seems like a useful thing to at least be partially acquainted with, so this seemed like a good option. Lmao. Keep the downvotes coming noobs (been here longer than most of you).
dang 6y ago
(We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23917075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23917075)

> You're going to end up with a bunch of rich white dudes as founders Why not just say "rich dudes" ? That is the qualifier. The race might be true too, but it's not what defines the argument.

andreilys 6y ago

There’s very little penalty in doing so and scores points in some circles.

polk 6y ago

I'm surprised you find the race unnecessary, but continue to include the gender. "Rich people" would be all that's required.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
fnordsensei 6y ago
Isn’t a random sample out of the set of rich people going to yield a lot of whiteness and dudeness though?
kylec 6y ago
I’m surprised you find the gender unnecessary, but continue to include the species. “Rich individuals” would be all that’s required.
steffandroid 6y ago
The problem with "rich people" as a phrase is that most rich people don't think of themselves as rich - for example, only 13% of millionaires do [1]. As "white dudes" are disproportionately represented within this demographic, I think the inclusion of these qualifiers helps to illustrate the point. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/most-millionaires-dont-think-they-are-rich-2019-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/most-millionaires-dont-think...
stronglikedan 6y ago
The term "dudes" is not specific (colloquially, anyway) like "white".

beervirus 6y ago

white man bad.

pantaloony 6y ago

A lot of those sorts of phrases become automatic even when they don’t make much sense. A bit like “African American” accidentally being used as a label for people who aren’t American at all. Right now throwing in “white” and “men” is kinda automatic with “rich” even when the “rich” part is the main thing that matters, as here. [edit] Jesus, this is a real issue one has to look out for when writing and speaking: falling into using easy, worn phrases when they’re less effective at communicating what you’re trying to say than an alternative, and often explains these cases of overreach or somewhat “off” usage with cliché phrases, which was what was asked about. It’s very easy to let one’s fingers type right through a worn rut, once one starts into it, when some reflection might reveal that was a bit off. Struck a nerve for some reason, I guess? I have exactly no idea why.

hardwaregeek 6y ago

You might get some Asians as well but white households have 10x the wealth of Black households and 8x the wealth of Hispanic households. Restricting to the wealthy will restrict to primarily white and Asian. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/01/how-wealth-inequality-has-changed-in-the-u-s-since-the-great-recession-by-race-ethnicity-and-income/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/01/how-wealth-...

Apocryphon 6y ago
Asians aren't very represented in corporate leadership. https://hbr.org/2018/05/asian-americans-are-the-least-likely-group-in-the-u-s-to-be-promoted-to-management https://hbr.org/2018/05/asian-americans-are-the-least-likely...

sp332 6y ago

Access to capital is partly based on social and professional networks, which are harder for black people to access. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/07/22/black-entrepreneurs-venture-capital/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/07/22/black-e...

demarq 6y ago

Sure, tons of black people are using pelotons...

awillen 6y ago

Most of them will be white - basic statistics bear that out. Since my point was that it's incredibly detrimental to diversity, it's obviously relevant to it. If you want to make an argument for something, go nuts, but don't come tell me what defines my own argument. Also, stuff like this is problematic for diversity - you're pretending that race is somehow irrelevant in discussions of socioeconomic status, when in fact it is very much so. "It doesn't matter that they're white, it just matters that they're rich" very much misses some highly relevant big picture info.

kkolanm 6y ago
A wealthy black person can easily start their own business. They may have some advantages and disadvantages vs a wealthy white person but nothing can stop them doing it. They have money. A wealthy Black person is a “have” not a “have not.” A poor white person cannot use their whiteness to pay the bills. Ask millions of white people why they work shitty jobs if you think being white solves economic problems. They can’t stop working their shifty job to participate in YC if they lowered their investment. A wealthy black founder very obviously could. Clearly the deciding factor is socioeconomic and not race. So you’re just wrong to talk about racial diversity when the issue is clearly socioeconomic diversity. The absolute proof is that increased economic diversity necessarily results in increased racial diversity. Contrarily, increased racial diversity does not necessarily result in socioeconomic diversity. Because one is the root cause of the other. Your thinking is what leads to “diverse” organizations where many racial and gender groups are represented but they’re all rich people that attended Ivy League schools. And that is not diversity by any meaningful definition. It does nothing to alleviate systemic unfairness.
- awillen 6y ago
  Please show me some organizations that are a bunch of rich white people who all attended Ivy League schools but are otherwise highly diverse (race, gender, etc.). That's the problem - you're talking in theory (obviously there are rich black people and they have resources) while ignoring practical reality, which is that race and socioeconomic status are highly correlated to the point where you can't just magically ignore the latter and somehow equitably deal with the former.

hinkley 6y ago

Because intersectionality cuts both ways and we've only been talking about one of them. By the new definition of 'middle class' (which now includes people up to their eyeballs in debt), the middle class would call me a 'rich dude' even though millionaires would tolerate my presence at an event but not be that happy about it. I see this every time I am given bad news about a large bill for the vet or repairs and they are visibly surprised when I just reach for the wallet instead of argue. You are a rich dude, dude. But I've noticed that I am comfortable in other situations where my white dude peers are not and it's because I belong to other privilege groups that they don't. Like physicality. Which I think speaks to how people react when you point out their privileges, because there is always somebody who has it better off and if you are jealous of other people, it rots your brain. Sympathizing with people who are jealous of you while you are insanely jealous of others takes some internal work that people don't want to do.

santoshalper 6y ago

You are correct that the defining selection criteria is wealth. However, white people are disproportionately wealthy in the United States, so indirectly you will also have a racial bias in your outcomes as well. When winning leads to more winning - groups that have won disproportionately in the past (white people) will continue to win more and more unless we find a way to counterbalance. This is why almost every sport includes some kind of catch-up model for their franchises (better draft picks for performing teams, salary caps) to encourage balance and competitiveness. We accept this in sports and know that it helps, but we don't want to believe it is needed in our economy, which is the most important competitive sport played in the world.

fourstar 6y ago

Because he's virtue signaling. From this guy's blog: > Those of you who know me know that I’m a self-described brunch enthusiast. This more or less means that I go to bottomless brunch at a new place in SF every weekend. > As a tech bro in San Francisco (San Franciscbro?), it was only a matter of time until I had the obvious thought – “How can I monetize brunch?” I’ve been meaning to dabble in SEO at some point, both because I generally enjoy dabbling and because it seems like a useful thing to at least be partially acquainted with, so this seemed like a good option. Lmao. Keep the downvotes coming noobs (been here longer than most of you).

dang 6y ago

(We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23917075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23917075)