6 ms·

>Especially since many of the countries that have locked down and then opened up are seeing a resurgence of the disease Isnt that the expected result? Did any

• 1996 6y ago
  Sweden made a contrarian bet: that hospitals won't be flooded, and a few less ambitious measures that people will tolerate for a longer time is better than a large list of freedom destroying measures that can only lead to riots if imposed for too long (depending on the countries, you had things like lockdown at home, with only shopping on some days depending on the last digit of your social security, or only going out for 1 hour per day with printed, signed and dated papers to present to the police, etc)
  • petre 6y ago
    It worked better than for Serbia, where people were recently rioting for being locked down again for a whole weekend.
  • Spartan-S63 6y ago
    I also think the bet depended on Sweden's culture of social responsibility. Doing something similar in the US would never work. We don't have a culture of social responsibility. It's why draconian measures were required. Recommendations don't work and laws/ordnances only work to an extent. In essence, the US has such a self-centered culture that the only option to combat a pandemic like this is draconian lockdown that borders on infringing on individual rights.
    • minerjoe 6y ago
      Conquer with Inaction Do not control the people with laws, Nor violence nor espionage, But conquer them with inaction. For: The more morals and taboos there are, The more cruelty afflicts people; The more guns and knives there are, The more factions divide people; The more arts and skills there are, The more change obsoletes people; The more laws and taxes there are, The more theft corrupts people. Yet take no action, and the people nurture eachother; Make no laws, and the people deal fairly with eachother; Own no interest, and the people cooperate with eachother; Express no desire, and the people harmonize with eachother. -- Lao Tse, "Tao Te Ching"
      • nonamenoslogan 6y ago
        I didn't realize there were guns in the 4th century BC.
      • wincy 6y ago
        A 6th century BCE philosopher had an opinion on guns?
      • monkeydreams 6y ago
        It's also important to note that Lao Tse was trying to make sense of the collapse of his entire way of life during the Warring States period. He was trying to find an answer as to how the governments of the day failed so badly and descended into such chaos. While it is true that community spirit can thrive under pressure, we should not be seeking to attain community spirit at the cost of overall quality of life. We should not allow COVID-19 to run rampant so that people learn the usefulness of masks. This falls into the same trap that Lao Tse fell into, thinking that the perceived causative opposite will result in the opposite outcome. If this were true, then the Sudan and Somalia would be the happiest places on Earth.
    • mixmastamyk 6y ago
      > We don't have a culture of social responsibility. It's why draconian measures were required. Sounds backwards to me. I'd bet a logical approach like Sweden's would have been much better tolerated and observed, especially in the long term. The current "new plan of the week" here in California is for the birds. Not to mention that a significant portion of US deaths were a direct cause of NY forcing sick into nursing homes.
      • Spartan-S63 6y ago
        Colorado went a couple months recommending but not requiring face masks. The governor finally enacted a mandate because people weren't abiding by it.
        • mixmastamyk 6y ago
          And? I know many folks have been convinced that cloth-mask wearing is the primary factor in reducing transmission. But, deep down I think we all know that it's not that important compared to other things. Also, folks do comply voluntarily when they see local stats and people around them getting sick. Yes, scolding when statistically no one in a rural state has it is not surprisingly effective in the short term.
          • addicted 6y ago
            What other things?
            • mixmastamyk 6y ago
              Any of the dozens of other guidelines that should be followed, minus the cloth mask. One not often mentioned but touched on here is getting outdoors in the sunshine. Locally I often see folks hiking alone in the sun wearing cloth masks and it is clear they don't understand when they are actually useful or not. Anti folks don't appear to either.
          • Terretta 6y ago
  • rumanator 6y ago
    > (...) is better than a large list of freedom destroying measures that can only lead to riots if imposed for too long Do you have any example of such a civilization-destroying reaction to basic public health measures? I mean, Spain was locked down for a long time, and they did had armed forces personnel patrolling the streets, and Spain didn't descended into chaos although they still remember quite well what's it like to live in a dictatorship.
    • 1996 6y ago
      If you need the army patrolling the streets to enforce the rules, I think that riots are not too far away. I also learned in this thread they happened in other countries like Serbia. I would expect them to happen in more european countries if there is indeed a second wave, and they do not have the foresight to deploy soldiers in the streets.
  • abrookewood 6y ago
    And that the country was happy with a much higher death rate. Sweden has less than half the population of Australia and they have had 5,667 deaths and Australia has had 128.
    • mixmastamyk 6y ago
      Oz is probably the sparsest country in the world.
      • mr_eel 6y ago
        With the majority of the population living in cities on the coast. Sydney? Melbourne? Big, dense cities. We're not all out living in the bush shouting cooee at each other.
      • roganartu 6y ago
        If you measure average population density across the entire country, sure, but the vast majority of the country is practically uninhabited. Sydney and Melbourne are much like any other large city in the world and, at around five million people each, combined they represent ~40% of the country's population. The early success Australia saw in dealing with this pandemic had nothing to do with sparse population.
    • iateanapple 6y ago
      > And that the country was happy with a much higher death rate. Sweden has less than half the population of Australia and they have had 5,667 deaths and Australia has had 128. When Australia went into the first lockdown they had essentially no community transmission. It is unclear that the lockdowns had any impact at all. Now that there is significant community transmission in Melbourne we can see if the second lockdown is effective.
• dorkwood 6y ago
  I've seen different messaging spread around. With Australia, for example, I've heard people say they did a great job "squashing the virus", so I think there's definitely surprise from some people that cases are surging again. For example, I found an article called "Coronavirus: Are Australia's numbers at risk of escalating?"[0] (to me, the headline itself seems a strange question to ask, since the answer is obviously 'yes'). From the article: "Australia has reported just over 7,400 cases, far fewer than many nations. It has seen 102 deaths - the last was a month ago. Since May, the country has entered a phased exit from lockdown restrictions as the curve flattened. But in the last week there's been a rise in cases in Victoria, mostly in the state capital Melbourne. Concern has crept back into public conversation: Is this a small setback, or could it be something more sustained?" To me there seems to be a widespread misunderstanding, perhaps perpetuated by the media, that locking down the country would stop the spread of the virus entirely. [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53132585 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53132585
  • abrookewood 6y ago
    Well, we didn't exactly lock it down properly ... In Melbourne the poorly trained security guards responsible for quarantining returning passengers in a hotel were having sex with the passengers. It was also mentioned by the Victorian Premier yesterday that roughly 90% of people who felt sick were still out and about in the community and that roughly 50% of people who got tested for Covid were still active in the community before they got their results. Some of this would have been because they couldn't afford to miss work etc, but it's still disappointing.
• thu2111 6y ago
  Yes, but that changed very quickly to "lockdowns reduce total deaths" once it became clear that the predictions of hospital overload were wrong. Now you have places like New Zealand that appear to be trying to keep themselves COVID-free forever, without any clearly articulated path out of the restrictions.
  • addicted 6y ago
    You do realize New Zealand at the moment is almost restriction free outside of external travel? At this point they have fewer restrictions than any major country in the world including Sweden.
    • thu2111 6y ago
      Throttling all external travel is a severe and major restriction, especially for a country that derives significant revenue from tourism. It's not some minor thing that can be blown off. Travel to/from NZ will be minimal for as long as that continues, and they have no way out.