5 ms·

The Imprisoner’s Dilemma

27 points by danso 6y ago

zozin 6y ago
The cynic in me assumes that state governments are using this crisis as an opportunity to lower expenditures because of looming budget crises. Releasing tens of thousands of prisoners without sufficient support into a flailing economy is setting them up for failure.
- pantaloony 6y ago
  Unfortunately “adequate support to help people reintegrate so going back to crime isn’t their best option” looks a lot like “rewarding criminals” to a good portion of the electorate. Maybe in part because social services in general are so bad that anything at all looks like a lot of aid. Dunno if it’s still the case but I at one point a tax guy asked me if I’d been convicted of (IIRC) any drug offenses because if I had I’d have been ineligible for certain education-related tax assistance. Dafuq? Yes let’s make it even harder for people to do something other than dealing drugs, when they get out. That makes a ton of sense.
  - Vinnl 6y ago
    I recently tried to buy travel insurance. I had to check a box that I'd never been suspected of criminal activities, even if I was found to not be guilty (!), otherwise I wouldn't have been allowed to buy the insurance. This was in the Netherlands, btw.
    - chias 6y ago
      Hi Vinnl! I hereby inform you that I suspect you have committed a crime at some point. Congratulations you are now ineligible >:]
      - lowdose 6y ago
        The ultimate free lunch in insurance.
    - pmiller2 6y ago
      That’s weird. I’ve never been convicted of anything, but I was a suspect once, briefly. It’s funny to realize that could actually impact my life in any way. Also, I wonder how the insurance company would ever know someone was a suspect, if they weren’t arrested. Sometimes, suspects don’t even realize they’re suspects.
      - Vinnl 6y ago
        I don't think there able to know - after all, I had to manually tick the box.
jojobas 6y ago
The people advocating to release ~1 million violent criminals are least likely to suffer at their hands. Hand on heart, nobody wants to leave next to a convicted murderer or drug dealer. Mass incarceration is a symptom, abolishing it is not a cure.
- Sharlin 6y ago
  Drug dealer? Seriously? You mean those people who happened to sell a couple joints worth of marijuana to a friend while black? Or those who just happened to possess a bit too much to be considered "for personal use"?
  - Cthulhu_ 6y ago
    Both you and the grandparent are making sweeping generalizations; as with everything, there's various gradations in a crime and it's not a boolean equation. That said, I do agree that there's a large amount of people in prison that shouldn't be there, and the US prison system ensures people stay or return to prison later on.
    - Sharlin 6y ago
      I should probably have been clearer, but that was my point--the fact that "drug dealer" is too broad a concept. Even though some dealers are definitely career criminals, and some might also commit violent crimes, lumping a large majority of them in the same category as murderers is what got you (and other countries to varying degrees) into the whole mess in the first place. It is rhetoric only meant to scare people and shut down thinking.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    you're right, the range of situations that can be considered "selling drugs" is pretty absurd. for instance, if a bunch of kids pool their money to get a better deal on a larger amount, the one who actually makes the buy and splits it up can be charged with distribution even if they don't make any money off the transaction. that said, I don't think most people who aren't a part of that world would want to live next to an actual dealer. in some ways the "retail" folks can be the worst to live near. if they sell out of their home, it brings a lot of undesirable traffic to the area.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
granitDev 6y ago
How about we legalize the drugs, because the drug war has helped exactly no one, and release everyone convicted of a non-violent drug offense, AND wipe the conviction from their record and offer them free educational assistance? That would be a start, would probably get rid of half the prison population, and would prevent a whole lot of future arrests, and would defund the gangs.
- coldcode 6y ago
  I always said if Walmart/Amazon could sell Pot, crime would be cut in half. The point is that "illegal" drugs still have people who want them, thus economically someone will provide, and getting arrested is part of the cost, and killing rivals part of the business. But if buying/selling/using is legal, then supply goes to the whoever can do it the easiest/cheapest, which is usually regular retailers. Thus arrests for these now legal drugs (like Nicotine and Alcohol are) are limited to misuse (like DWI) and police can focus on regular crime. Also enforcement of rules (don't sell to minors etc.) can be managed easier since it's the retailers that are being managed.
  - SquishyPanda23 6y ago
    I'm a long-time fan of legalizing drugs, but it's not entirely an easy problem to solve. Eliminating the black market is good. Having huge corporations pushing drugs is maybe not so good, or at least we should think through the consequences.
    - merpnderp 6y ago
      Exactly, we'd want to model it on successful systems. Like having drugs dispensed at government facilities where users were offered counseling and rehab, and an area specifically for getting high. We don't want there to be tv advertisements for heroin or meth targeting kids (or anyone).
      - curiousgal 6y ago
        The U.S. couldn't model its healthcare system on more successful systems, if those in power have such disregard for human life, what makes you think they'd think of drug users'.
neonate 6y ago
https://archive.is/YkuAp https://archive.is/YkuAp

27 points by danso 6y ago

The cynic in me assumes that state governments are using this crisis as an opportunity to lower expenditures because of looming budget crises. Releasing tens of thousands of prisoners without sufficient support into a flailing economy is setting them up for failure.

pantaloony 6y ago
Unfortunately “adequate support to help people reintegrate so going back to crime isn’t their best option” looks a lot like “rewarding criminals” to a good portion of the electorate. Maybe in part because social services in general are so bad that anything at all looks like a lot of aid. Dunno if it’s still the case but I at one point a tax guy asked me if I’d been convicted of (IIRC) any drug offenses because if I had I’d have been ineligible for certain education-related tax assistance. Dafuq? Yes let’s make it even harder for people to do something other than dealing drugs, when they get out. That makes a ton of sense.
- Vinnl 6y ago
  I recently tried to buy travel insurance. I had to check a box that I'd never been suspected of criminal activities, even if I was found to not be guilty (!), otherwise I wouldn't have been allowed to buy the insurance. This was in the Netherlands, btw.
  - chias 6y ago
    Hi Vinnl! I hereby inform you that I suspect you have committed a crime at some point. Congratulations you are now ineligible >:]
    - lowdose 6y ago
      The ultimate free lunch in insurance.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    That’s weird. I’ve never been convicted of anything, but I was a suspect once, briefly. It’s funny to realize that could actually impact my life in any way. Also, I wonder how the insurance company would ever know someone was a suspect, if they weren’t arrested. Sometimes, suspects don’t even realize they’re suspects.
    - Vinnl 6y ago
      I don't think there able to know - after all, I had to manually tick the box.

jojobas 6y ago

The people advocating to release ~1 million violent criminals are least likely to suffer at their hands. Hand on heart, nobody wants to leave next to a convicted murderer or drug dealer. Mass incarceration is a symptom, abolishing it is not a cure.

Sharlin 6y ago
Drug dealer? Seriously? You mean those people who happened to sell a couple joints worth of marijuana to a friend while black? Or those who just happened to possess a bit too much to be considered "for personal use"?
- Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  Both you and the grandparent are making sweeping generalizations; as with everything, there's various gradations in a crime and it's not a boolean equation. That said, I do agree that there's a large amount of people in prison that shouldn't be there, and the US prison system ensures people stay or return to prison later on.
  - Sharlin 6y ago
    I should probably have been clearer, but that was my point--the fact that "drug dealer" is too broad a concept. Even though some dealers are definitely career criminals, and some might also commit violent crimes, lumping a large majority of them in the same category as murderers is what got you (and other countries to varying degrees) into the whole mess in the first place. It is rhetoric only meant to scare people and shut down thinking.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  you're right, the range of situations that can be considered "selling drugs" is pretty absurd. for instance, if a bunch of kids pool their money to get a better deal on a larger amount, the one who actually makes the buy and splits it up can be charged with distribution even if they don't make any money off the transaction. that said, I don't think most people who aren't a part of that world would want to live next to an actual dealer. in some ways the "retail" folks can be the worst to live near. if they sell out of their home, it brings a lot of undesirable traffic to the area.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

granitDev 6y ago

How about we legalize the drugs, because the drug war has helped exactly no one, and release everyone convicted of a non-violent drug offense, AND wipe the conviction from their record and offer them free educational assistance? That would be a start, would probably get rid of half the prison population, and would prevent a whole lot of future arrests, and would defund the gangs.

coldcode 6y ago
I always said if Walmart/Amazon could sell Pot, crime would be cut in half. The point is that "illegal" drugs still have people who want them, thus economically someone will provide, and getting arrested is part of the cost, and killing rivals part of the business. But if buying/selling/using is legal, then supply goes to the whoever can do it the easiest/cheapest, which is usually regular retailers. Thus arrests for these now legal drugs (like Nicotine and Alcohol are) are limited to misuse (like DWI) and police can focus on regular crime. Also enforcement of rules (don't sell to minors etc.) can be managed easier since it's the retailers that are being managed.
- SquishyPanda23 6y ago
  I'm a long-time fan of legalizing drugs, but it's not entirely an easy problem to solve. Eliminating the black market is good. Having huge corporations pushing drugs is maybe not so good, or at least we should think through the consequences.
  - merpnderp 6y ago
    Exactly, we'd want to model it on successful systems. Like having drugs dispensed at government facilities where users were offered counseling and rehab, and an area specifically for getting high. We don't want there to be tv advertisements for heroin or meth targeting kids (or anyone).
    - curiousgal 6y ago
      The U.S. couldn't model its healthcare system on more successful systems, if those in power have such disregard for human life, what makes you think they'd think of drug users'.

neonate 6y ago

https://archive.is/YkuAp https://archive.is/YkuAp