3 ms·

> This is a good and interesting read regardless, but I'll just point out that when studies are properly controlled for confounders, the "relationship with the

> This is a good and interesting read regardless, but I'll just point out that when studies are properly controlled for confounders, the "relationship with the early caregivers" matters much less than we want to think. Maybe not even at all. No, it matters. Baby cries, caregiver shows up. Repeated over and over, that's how babies form bonds. Baby has a need, need is met. If the need is not met, that is trauma and it affects the way baby forms bonds. Forming bonds starts this early and it matters a lot.

kqr 6y ago
Children are far more resilient than they get credit for. Short of actual abuse, malnutrition, or other terrible things, crying (and not meeting social needs) is not obviously harmful for baby. Sure, baby will have a weak(er) bond with their primary caregivers if that happens, but it does not affect how they turn out later in life with other people. If it does, it is only after genetics and same-age peers have had their much bigger effects. I do recommend reading The Nurture Assumption, which is about that specific assumption that the relationships with parents would be important in all other thing in life. It has not been proven in any strong studies.
- srean 6y ago
  > but it does not affect how they turn out later in life with other people. Citation please, because there is a lot of peer reviewed literature that claims the exact opposite. One place to start with that literature would be Bowlby.
  - kqr 6y ago
    I did cite Harris' The Nurture Assumption, which argues this incredibly lucidly. IIRC she does reference Bowlby too.
    - srean 6y ago
      Thanks for pointing it out, its not a peer reviewed publication but its at least something. Its a minority view though. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about its reception: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nurture_Assumption#Reception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nurture_Assumption#Recepti... The Nurture Assumption received mixed responses. The neuroscientist Robert Sapolsky says her book is "based on solid science".[6] The psychologist Steven Pinker of Harvard predicts that the book "will come to be seen as a turning point in the history of psychology".[7] However, the psychologist Frank Farley claims that "she's taking an extreme position based on a limited set of data. Her thesis is absurd on its face, but consider what might happen if parents believe this stuff!"[6] Wendy Williams, who studies how environment affects IQ, argues that "there are many, many good studies that show parents can affect how children turn out in both cognitive abilities and behavior".[6] The psychologist Jerome Kagan argues that Harris "ignores some important facts, ones that are inconsistent with this book's conclusions".[8] Harris rejects the idea that The Nurture Assumption will encourage parents to neglect or mistreat their children.[9] She maintains that parents will continue to treat their children well "for the same reason you are nice to your friends and your partner, even though you have no hopes of molding their character. For the same reason your great-grandparents were nice to their children, even though they didn't believe in the nurture assumption".[10]
      - kqr 6y ago
        She does reference plenty of peer-reviewed material that both supports and argues against her viewpoint. I normally wouldn't accept a minority viewpoint as such, but the arguments are very strong. As I said, I recommend reading it. Do what you want with that information!
        srean 6y ago
        Yeah sure, thanks for the recommendation. Should be an interesting read.
ip26 6y ago
There are many years thereafter to make up for any gaps in this process. Speaking as a parent of young children, the kid is going to do better long term if the parent is socially permitted to allow a baby to cry sometimes- because feeling like you must answer the cry at the drop of a hat every single time lest ruin your child for life, is how people snap. Sometimes you just need to lay on the floor & cry yourself for a few minutes.
- HumblyTossed 6y ago
  > ... permitted to allow a baby to cry sometimes... Nothing I said contradicts this - as long as you have a bond with your child. If all you want to do is lay on the ground yourself and cry and you aren't meeting the child's needs, that is neglect and it is trauma and it does affect the child.

kqr 6y ago

Children are far more resilient than they get credit for. Short of actual abuse, malnutrition, or other terrible things, crying (and not meeting social needs) is not obviously harmful for baby. Sure, baby will have a weak(er) bond with their primary caregivers if that happens, but it does not affect how they turn out later in life with other people. If it does, it is only after genetics and same-age peers have had their much bigger effects. I do recommend reading The Nurture Assumption, which is about that specific assumption that the relationships with parents would be important in all other thing in life. It has not been proven in any strong studies.

srean 6y ago
> but it does not affect how they turn out later in life with other people. Citation please, because there is a lot of peer reviewed literature that claims the exact opposite. One place to start with that literature would be Bowlby.
- kqr 6y ago
  I did cite Harris' The Nurture Assumption, which argues this incredibly lucidly. IIRC she does reference Bowlby too.
  - srean 6y ago
    Thanks for pointing it out, its not a peer reviewed publication but its at least something. Its a minority view though. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about its reception: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nurture_Assumption#Reception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nurture_Assumption#Recepti... The Nurture Assumption received mixed responses. The neuroscientist Robert Sapolsky says her book is "based on solid science".[6] The psychologist Steven Pinker of Harvard predicts that the book "will come to be seen as a turning point in the history of psychology".[7] However, the psychologist Frank Farley claims that "she's taking an extreme position based on a limited set of data. Her thesis is absurd on its face, but consider what might happen if parents believe this stuff!"[6] Wendy Williams, who studies how environment affects IQ, argues that "there are many, many good studies that show parents can affect how children turn out in both cognitive abilities and behavior".[6] The psychologist Jerome Kagan argues that Harris "ignores some important facts, ones that are inconsistent with this book's conclusions".[8] Harris rejects the idea that The Nurture Assumption will encourage parents to neglect or mistreat their children.[9] She maintains that parents will continue to treat their children well "for the same reason you are nice to your friends and your partner, even though you have no hopes of molding their character. For the same reason your great-grandparents were nice to their children, even though they didn't believe in the nurture assumption".[10]
    - kqr 6y ago
      She does reference plenty of peer-reviewed material that both supports and argues against her viewpoint. I normally wouldn't accept a minority viewpoint as such, but the arguments are very strong. As I said, I recommend reading it. Do what you want with that information!
      - srean 6y ago
        Yeah sure, thanks for the recommendation. Should be an interesting read.

ip26 6y ago

There are many years thereafter to make up for any gaps in this process. Speaking as a parent of young children, the kid is going to do better long term if the parent is socially permitted to allow a baby to cry sometimes- because feeling like you must answer the cry at the drop of a hat every single time lest ruin your child for life, is how people snap. Sometimes you just need to lay on the floor & cry yourself for a few minutes.

HumblyTossed 6y ago
> ... permitted to allow a baby to cry sometimes... Nothing I said contradicts this - as long as you have a bond with your child. If all you want to do is lay on the ground yourself and cry and you aren't meeting the child's needs, that is neglect and it is trauma and it does affect the child.