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In many disciplines, too, the answer is "don't go to any program." Most humanities fields, for example, have numerous essays written about why doing grad school

In many disciplines, too, the answer is "don't go to any program." Most humanities fields, for example, have numerous essays written about why doing grad school in them is a poor life choice, like my contribution: https://jakeseliger.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-know-before-you-start-grad-school-in-english-literature-the-economic-financial-and-opportunity-costs/ https://jakeseliger.com/2012/05/22/what-you-should-know-befo.... One could say the same of most social sciences.

MaximumYComb 6y ago
I feel that a significant majority people don't weigh up the value of courses for both undergraduate and graduate. Having a read through your contribution seems like you made the same conclusion, albiet slightly late for your own benefit.
AndyMcConachie 6y ago
It's not really any better outside of the humanities. Maybe the prospects are slightly better, but grad school is still a crappy choice. I got a bachelors in Computer Science and then worked for 15 years before going back and getting a masters. While there I was asked to work for free on numerous occasions, we can call if different things, but that's how I saw it. Already knowing the value of my labour I finished my masters and then left. I definitely had the option to continue with a PhD, and I'm almost certain that had I applied I would have been accepted. But I just wasn't interested in being exploited. I remember one class which I dropped in which the entire class was project based, and we were to work on projects that aligned with the research of the professor. On the first day there was no syllabus given, so I asked what the readings were and received a grumpy response basically saying, "Readings, yeah there will be some readings." Or something similar. It was incredibly clear the instructor just wanted grad slaves to advance their stuff. I dropped that class, but I could cite numerous other examples. I paid for the privilege of working for free and learned some stuff along the way. Maybe I should have spent the two years and money on travelling and seeing the world instead. I likely would have learned more, but I wouldn't have this fancy grad degree.
- toxik 6y ago
  Counter anecdata: I am taking a CS doctorate degree, and have never been asked to work for free, and never been cheated out of course time to work on what the professor thinks is interesting.
  - abnry 6y ago
    I think the lab-heavy (i.e. non-digital) programs have this problem more. When I was in grad school, I knew plenty of chemistry students who were expected to work 6 days a week.
- matthewdgreen 6y ago
  Computer science professor here: I love to have students work on research in my courses, provided that they understand this is the point of the course and they choose to do it. Some of my best students (who went on to great careers in industry or academia) did terrific research projects of their own choosing. I don’t ask students to do research projects because I expect “free labor” from them (unless they’re my PhD advisee, in which case it’s just poorly-paid labor.) In fact, most of the time I expect that undergraduate and MS projects will fail, or only be partially finished simply due to the schedule constraints those students have with other courses. For students who are actually interested in conducting real research, the value to the student in being advised by me comes from the fact that they’re working on a research project that’s in my area of expertise and interest. The value to me is that sometimes I learn something new. There’s much less value in my advising students to do projects in areas that I wouldn’t be interested in researching myself, not because I’m looking to cash in on students’ labor, but because I won’t be able to offer them as much guidance.
  - mnky9800n 6y ago
    Yes I think what the person you replied to identified as work isn't really much work at all in the sense that you would find in a software dev job or something like that. You aren't asking your students to write another database interface or something. You are giving them projects to let them know what you do, what that part of the field is about, and to expose them to ideas that they might carry forward. The view presented is so cynical is hard to take serious tbh.
tharne 6y ago
I was at a social event and got to talking with a professor at an Ivy League school. He had a really insightful take on this. He said that the only fair way to present a doctoral program to prospective students is to compare it to trying to become a rockstar. Every day tons of people form garage bands and have dreams of becoming rock stars. But...they do so knowing they almost certainly won't make it. This professor said that starting a doctoral program should be viewed the same way, as a sort of moon-shoot that will take a lot of time and resources from other pursuits. If you're okay with that, go for it, and if you're not, find a path that works better for you. Unfortunately, the administration of the school he worked for told him he would be removed from his position if he shared this philosophy with prospective students.
- gowld 6y ago
  A PhD program is not a trade school. It was originally designed for the intellectually inclined aristocracy to put their minds to good use. If you understand that, you are fine.
  - tharne 6y ago
    That's a really good way of thinking about it.
- aj7 6y ago
  Very honest and correct. At least in the sciences, there are “outs” in related business and engineering careers.
- abnry 6y ago
  I like this. The analogy I always use is trying to be a major league baseball player, because I think the farm system captures the dynamics of the grad student component of academia.
- scott_s 6y ago
  That is a good framing. When I explain it to people, I compare it to the NBA. Except it's like trying to get into the NBA when all of your coaches over your entire basketball life up until that point have been in the NBA. Proximity can trick you into thinking you just have to "decide" to pursue such a position, not knowing that such positions are the result of a ruthless tournament system.
eastbayjake 6y ago
A classic of this genre from 2011: https://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/08/29/voices-of-the-defenders-of-grad-school-and-me-crushing-them/ https://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/08/29/voices-of-the-defe...
M5x7wI3CmbEem10 6y ago
if you don’t mind the financial aspect, would it be okay to do a PhD for enjoyment? I’m thinking someone could work at Facebook over the summers while studying because they take PhDs

MaximumYComb 6y ago

I feel that a significant majority people don't weigh up the value of courses for both undergraduate and graduate. Having a read through your contribution seems like you made the same conclusion, albiet slightly late for your own benefit.

AndyMcConachie 6y ago

It's not really any better outside of the humanities. Maybe the prospects are slightly better, but grad school is still a crappy choice. I got a bachelors in Computer Science and then worked for 15 years before going back and getting a masters. While there I was asked to work for free on numerous occasions, we can call if different things, but that's how I saw it. Already knowing the value of my labour I finished my masters and then left. I definitely had the option to continue with a PhD, and I'm almost certain that had I applied I would have been accepted. But I just wasn't interested in being exploited. I remember one class which I dropped in which the entire class was project based, and we were to work on projects that aligned with the research of the professor. On the first day there was no syllabus given, so I asked what the readings were and received a grumpy response basically saying, "Readings, yeah there will be some readings." Or something similar. It was incredibly clear the instructor just wanted grad slaves to advance their stuff. I dropped that class, but I could cite numerous other examples. I paid for the privilege of working for free and learned some stuff along the way. Maybe I should have spent the two years and money on travelling and seeing the world instead. I likely would have learned more, but I wouldn't have this fancy grad degree.

toxik 6y ago
Counter anecdata: I am taking a CS doctorate degree, and have never been asked to work for free, and never been cheated out of course time to work on what the professor thinks is interesting.
- abnry 6y ago
  I think the lab-heavy (i.e. non-digital) programs have this problem more. When I was in grad school, I knew plenty of chemistry students who were expected to work 6 days a week.
matthewdgreen 6y ago
Computer science professor here: I love to have students work on research in my courses, provided that they understand this is the point of the course and they choose to do it. Some of my best students (who went on to great careers in industry or academia) did terrific research projects of their own choosing. I don’t ask students to do research projects because I expect “free labor” from them (unless they’re my PhD advisee, in which case it’s just poorly-paid labor.) In fact, most of the time I expect that undergraduate and MS projects will fail, or only be partially finished simply due to the schedule constraints those students have with other courses. For students who are actually interested in conducting real research, the value to the student in being advised by me comes from the fact that they’re working on a research project that’s in my area of expertise and interest. The value to me is that sometimes I learn something new. There’s much less value in my advising students to do projects in areas that I wouldn’t be interested in researching myself, not because I’m looking to cash in on students’ labor, but because I won’t be able to offer them as much guidance.
- mnky9800n 6y ago
  Yes I think what the person you replied to identified as work isn't really much work at all in the sense that you would find in a software dev job or something like that. You aren't asking your students to write another database interface or something. You are giving them projects to let them know what you do, what that part of the field is about, and to expose them to ideas that they might carry forward. The view presented is so cynical is hard to take serious tbh.

tharne 6y ago

I was at a social event and got to talking with a professor at an Ivy League school. He had a really insightful take on this. He said that the only fair way to present a doctoral program to prospective students is to compare it to trying to become a rockstar. Every day tons of people form garage bands and have dreams of becoming rock stars. But...they do so knowing they almost certainly won't make it. This professor said that starting a doctoral program should be viewed the same way, as a sort of moon-shoot that will take a lot of time and resources from other pursuits. If you're okay with that, go for it, and if you're not, find a path that works better for you. Unfortunately, the administration of the school he worked for told him he would be removed from his position if he shared this philosophy with prospective students.

gowld 6y ago
A PhD program is not a trade school. It was originally designed for the intellectually inclined aristocracy to put their minds to good use. If you understand that, you are fine.
- tharne 6y ago
  That's a really good way of thinking about it.
aj7 6y ago
Very honest and correct. At least in the sciences, there are “outs” in related business and engineering careers.
abnry 6y ago
I like this. The analogy I always use is trying to be a major league baseball player, because I think the farm system captures the dynamics of the grad student component of academia.
scott_s 6y ago
That is a good framing. When I explain it to people, I compare it to the NBA. Except it's like trying to get into the NBA when all of your coaches over your entire basketball life up until that point have been in the NBA. Proximity can trick you into thinking you just have to "decide" to pursue such a position, not knowing that such positions are the result of a ruthless tournament system.

eastbayjake 6y ago

A classic of this genre from 2011: https://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/08/29/voices-of-the-defenders-of-grad-school-and-me-crushing-them/ https://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/08/29/voices-of-the-defe...

M5x7wI3CmbEem10 6y ago

if you don’t mind the financial aspect, would it be okay to do a PhD for enjoyment? I’m thinking someone could work at Facebook over the summers while studying because they take PhDs