5 ms·

Aristotle's Lost Book on Magic (2018)

87 points by benbreen 6y ago

simonebrunozzi 6y ago
> The title either refers to the art practised by the Magi (the Zoroastrian priests from Persia), or it refers to the fact that the discussion is a discussion about the Magi In Aristotle's time, Magic / Magi refers mostly to priests and/or healers, not the "sorcerers" that we might have in mind today.
- gmantg 6y ago
  It's the same thing. There were posers and those with practical knowledge. Today it's almost entirely clueless posers.
  - krustyburger 6y ago
    The way that occultists all claim that all of the other occultists are clueless posers is one of the things that makes the whole lot look rather silly.
    - centimeter 6y ago
      Including the clueless posers that fill 90% of hospital positions!
      - eru 6y ago
        The OECD suggests [1] that there are about three nurses for every doctor. Complain about doctors as much as you like, but most nurses have lots of useful and relevant practical experience. (I think most doctors are probably fine. But I don't need to win that argument to deny the 90% claim.) [1] https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/health_glance-2017-56-en.pdf?expires=1595477172&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=AC1DC1F8F085B06434DF20ECEBAF6B21 https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/health_glance-2017-5... suggests
- cyan87 6y ago
  I agree, I think a lot of context is lost here by wordage that now has different meaning.
- User23 6y ago
  Also medicine and magic used to be synonymous until quite recently. See for example the American Indian medicine men.
  - ARandomerDude 6y ago
    American Indians and Europeans have/had radically different cultures. "Magic" and "medicine" have been distinct for thousands of years in Europe.
    - lioeters 6y ago
      > "Magic" and "medicine" have been distinct for thousands of years in Europe. Medicine and magic have been intertwined throughout human history, all over the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia_medica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia_medica
      - yesenadam 6y ago
        Not sure why you linked to that page, as it doesn't mention magic at all, unless I missed it, apart from this in the first paragraph: "The Ebers papyrus is an ancient recipe book dated to approximately 1552 BC. It contains a mixture of magic and medicine with invocations to banish disease and a catalogue of useful plants, minerals, magic amulets and spells." Materia medica was the old term for what is now pharmacology.
        simonh 6y ago
        There's also this bit on Egyptian medicine: "It contains a mixture of magic and medicine with invocations to banish disease and a catalogue of useful plants, minerals, magic amulets and spells." So it doesn't, except when it does. I'd also argue a lot of medicine employed 'magical thinking' such as efficacy from similarity. Herbs were recommended based on their physical similarity to organs or parts of the body. I don't think it's pejorative of early practitioners to point this out. Until empiricism and experimentalism there was no way to reliably clarify what worked and why.
wahern 6y ago
> It seems to me as if all these testimonies could be referring to a discussion of wise philosopher kings [EDIT: e.g. Persian Zoroastrian kings] who are able to predict the future through their understanding of the heavens and the science of nature. Makes me wonder if that is the particular sort of "philosopher king" Plato had in mind, rather than a more general smart guy with the final say-so. The former would resonate, at least a little more, with modern desires to apply empirical methods to sociological and political problems.
- ngold 6y ago
  I sometimes wonder if humanity will veer off into scientific priesthood that will control humanity. That eventually forget why they are worshipping a language they no longer understand.
  - yters 6y ago
    That's what tends to happen with pandemics. Established religion loses authority, and scientists who can heal people gain authority. Then scientist take their newfound authority and invent world destroying super weapons and tell humanity they are insignificant, which tends to swing authority somewhere else.
  - MengerSponge 6y ago
    We have plenty of scientism already, but scientists are only listened to when it's convenient. See: vaccines, nuclear energy, starlink, and climate change. Besides, the interesting questions that drive politics aren't scientific ones. Science rarely speaks authoritatively on moral questions.
    - eru 6y ago
      > Science rarely speaks authoritatively on moral questions. At least they aren't allowed to. Even if you don't allow to derive 'ought' from 'is', facts and reasoning can transform some simple 'oughts' into interesting consequences. Ie 'ought' plus 'is' can derive you another 'ought'. You still have to pick your initial 'oughts', of course. I agree with your first paragraph!
ctdonath 6y ago
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Clarke may have enunciated it, but Aristotle may have been first to recognize it.
- ARandomerDude 6y ago
  > Aristotle may have been first to recognize it It's truly amazing how many concepts fit that description.
peter_d_sherman 6y ago
>"Diogenes reports that Aristotle thought magic wasn't sorcery, but philosophy or wisdom. This is confirmed by the Suda."
082349872349872 6y ago
To be fair "among the other things he predicted about Socrates, was that he will have a violent end" could have been predicted by pretty much anyone who had grown up among primates. A contemporary phrase: "στέργει γὰρ οὐδεὶς ἄγγελον κακῶν ἐπῶν." https://existentialcomics.com/comic/344 https://existentialcomics.com/comic/344

87 points by benbreen 6y ago

> The title either refers to the art practised by the Magi (the Zoroastrian priests from Persia), or it refers to the fact that the discussion is a discussion about the Magi In Aristotle's time, Magic / Magi refers mostly to priests and/or healers, not the "sorcerers" that we might have in mind today.

gmantg 6y ago
It's the same thing. There were posers and those with practical knowledge. Today it's almost entirely clueless posers.
- krustyburger 6y ago
  The way that occultists all claim that all of the other occultists are clueless posers is one of the things that makes the whole lot look rather silly.
  - centimeter 6y ago
    Including the clueless posers that fill 90% of hospital positions!
    - eru 6y ago
      The OECD suggests [1] that there are about three nurses for every doctor. Complain about doctors as much as you like, but most nurses have lots of useful and relevant practical experience. (I think most doctors are probably fine. But I don't need to win that argument to deny the 90% claim.) [1] https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/health_glance-2017-56-en.pdf?expires=1595477172&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=AC1DC1F8F085B06434DF20ECEBAF6B21 https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/health_glance-2017-5... suggests
cyan87 6y ago
I agree, I think a lot of context is lost here by wordage that now has different meaning.
User23 6y ago
Also medicine and magic used to be synonymous until quite recently. See for example the American Indian medicine men.
- ARandomerDude 6y ago
  American Indians and Europeans have/had radically different cultures. "Magic" and "medicine" have been distinct for thousands of years in Europe.
  - lioeters 6y ago
    > "Magic" and "medicine" have been distinct for thousands of years in Europe. Medicine and magic have been intertwined throughout human history, all over the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia_medica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materia_medica
    - yesenadam 6y ago
      Not sure why you linked to that page, as it doesn't mention magic at all, unless I missed it, apart from this in the first paragraph: "The Ebers papyrus is an ancient recipe book dated to approximately 1552 BC. It contains a mixture of magic and medicine with invocations to banish disease and a catalogue of useful plants, minerals, magic amulets and spells." Materia medica was the old term for what is now pharmacology.
      - simonh 6y ago
        There's also this bit on Egyptian medicine: "It contains a mixture of magic and medicine with invocations to banish disease and a catalogue of useful plants, minerals, magic amulets and spells." So it doesn't, except when it does. I'd also argue a lot of medicine employed 'magical thinking' such as efficacy from similarity. Herbs were recommended based on their physical similarity to organs or parts of the body. I don't think it's pejorative of early practitioners to point this out. Until empiricism and experimentalism there was no way to reliably clarify what worked and why.

wahern 6y ago

> It seems to me as if all these testimonies could be referring to a discussion of wise philosopher kings [EDIT: e.g. Persian Zoroastrian kings] who are able to predict the future through their understanding of the heavens and the science of nature. Makes me wonder if that is the particular sort of "philosopher king" Plato had in mind, rather than a more general smart guy with the final say-so. The former would resonate, at least a little more, with modern desires to apply empirical methods to sociological and political problems.

ngold 6y ago
I sometimes wonder if humanity will veer off into scientific priesthood that will control humanity. That eventually forget why they are worshipping a language they no longer understand.
- yters 6y ago
  That's what tends to happen with pandemics. Established religion loses authority, and scientists who can heal people gain authority. Then scientist take their newfound authority and invent world destroying super weapons and tell humanity they are insignificant, which tends to swing authority somewhere else.
- MengerSponge 6y ago
  We have plenty of scientism already, but scientists are only listened to when it's convenient. See: vaccines, nuclear energy, starlink, and climate change. Besides, the interesting questions that drive politics aren't scientific ones. Science rarely speaks authoritatively on moral questions.
  - eru 6y ago
    > Science rarely speaks authoritatively on moral questions. At least they aren't allowed to. Even if you don't allow to derive 'ought' from 'is', facts and reasoning can transform some simple 'oughts' into interesting consequences. Ie 'ought' plus 'is' can derive you another 'ought'. You still have to pick your initial 'oughts', of course. I agree with your first paragraph!

ctdonath 6y ago

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Clarke may have enunciated it, but Aristotle may have been first to recognize it.

ARandomerDude 6y ago
> Aristotle may have been first to recognize it It's truly amazing how many concepts fit that description.

peter_d_sherman 6y ago

>"Diogenes reports that Aristotle thought magic wasn't sorcery, but philosophy or wisdom. This is confirmed by the Suda."

082349872349872 6y ago

To be fair "among the other things he predicted about Socrates, was that he will have a violent end" could have been predicted by pretty much anyone who had grown up among primates. A contemporary phrase: "στέργει γὰρ οὐδεὶς ἄγγελον κακῶν ἐπῶν." https://existentialcomics.com/comic/344 https://existentialcomics.com/comic/344