4 ms·

Could the Spanish have known at the time that they carried diseases that would nearly wipe out the natives?

by bluedino 6y ago

sprafa 6y ago
How? Their understanding of disease was surely rudimentary?
- narag 6y ago
  In the 1500s, nobody knew better.
jackcosgrove 6y ago
The miasma theory of disease was the dominant understanding of Europeans at the time. Miasma was understood to emanate from putrescence but was not communicable between people. Germ theory did not take hold until the 19th century.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
No, but they became aware of it as the diseases were spreading and took the opportunity to conquer the areas.
- pvaldes 6y ago
  The picture is incomplete in any case. Some researchers talk about a sustained decline linked with environmental problems and bad manage of a too fast growing population long before the arrival of spanish. Paleontological data from Mexico show a dry period extended between 500 and 1150 A.D. Mayans where wipped just by environmental problems and climate change after they distroyed the nature trying to feed their growing population. It seems that we are wired to commit the same stupid mistake again and again (Ethiopy, Sahara, Indonesia, Brazil... No forest -> no water -> no agriculture -> no humans). Big cities where deserted by climate changes when agriculture stopped to work, entering in a "tragedy of commons" process. We must take in mind also that the "before" number is just that, a stimate. Is adopted because it fits with the narrative but is also possible that the population numbers given to invaders were inflated for tactical purposes.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    >Paleontological data from Mexico show a dry period extended between 500 and 1150 A.D. Mayans where wipped just by environmental problems and climate change after they distroyed the nature trying to feed their growing population This is 500-1000 years before the Spanish invasion. About as long ago as the Spanish conquest is to us. It is not a relevant event when considering the population at the time. >Is adopted because it fits with the narrative but is also possible that the population numbers given to invaders were inflated for tactical purposes. The narrative is that most of the death happens well outside the knowledge of the invaders, there isn't much trust in the invaders estimates as a whole.
    - pvaldes 6y ago
      > This is 500-1000 years before the Spanish invasion And some people still blame spanish conquerors today for it... This article is probably related with the Mexico independence celebrations planned for 2021. In this context maybe will be a temptation to reinforce the relate of spaniards bad / natives innocent (even if they ate the hearts of other people to appease their gods).
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        >And some people still blame spanish conquerors today for it... Rightfully so. That the area had experienced a separate collapse over five hundred years before is completely unrelated. >In this context maybe will be a temptation to reinforce the relate of spaniards bad / natives innocent (even if they ate the hearts of other people to appease their gods). The Spanish invaded, conquered, and enslaved. Nobody is claiming the native population were some saintly people who did nothing wrong, but the Spaniards were definitely bad. Bringing religion into it only makes them look worse.
        pvaldes 6y ago
        > The Spanish invaded, conquered, and enslaved. Name me one single culture that never invaded, conquered and enslaved other people. From Egyptians to Romans, Chinese, Muslims, Aztecs, Belgians, and of course US Americans. Everybody did it, and the other are dead. Some people could argue that christianism, occidental medicine, and an unique lingua franca was definitely an improvement over the former myriad of isolated tribes unable to understand and speak with their neighbors, the trepanations to cure diseases, the wars against everybody and the human sacrifices and spreading terror as part of the way of life. The current situation can be improved of course, but nobody would want today a world with followers of mayan or aztec gods.
thedracle 6y ago
In the memoirs of Bernal Diaz Del Castillo, there were already several Spanish people living in the Yucatan when Cortez first landed in Veracruz. He documented evidence that some of these diseases had already made their rounds around the Americas before Cortez ever stepped foot on the continent: "Xicotencatl made various other offers of his services in the name of his country. This Xicotencatl was a tall man, broad shouldered, and well built, with a large fresh coloured face, full of scars, as if pitted with the smallpox." A specific case of smallpox did arrive later, according to the conquistador, on one of the ships sent by Governor Velázquez to capture Cortez (the ships were captured instead by Cortez, and their supplies used to take the Mexican capital): "But to return to Narvaez. He happened to have a negro servant with him ill with the smallpox, through whom this terrific disease, which, according to the accounts of the inhabitants, was previously unknown in the country, spread itself through New Spain, where it created the greater devastation, from the poor Indians, in their ignorance, solely applying cold water as a remedy, with which they constantly bathed themselves; so that vast numbers were cut off before they had the blessing of being received into the bosom of the Christian church." He goes on to document several contact dying from Smallpox afterwards. It does seem highly likely however though, that the moment Columbus made his expedition around the Caribbean, the introduction of these novel diseases already had likely begun spreading in waves through the Americas.

Could the Spanish have known at the time that they carried diseases that would nearly wipe out the natives?

sprafa 6y ago

How? Their understanding of disease was surely rudimentary?

narag 6y ago
In the 1500s, nobody knew better.

jackcosgrove 6y ago

The miasma theory of disease was the dominant understanding of Europeans at the time. Miasma was understood to emanate from putrescence but was not communicable between people. Germ theory did not take hold until the 19th century.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

No, but they became aware of it as the diseases were spreading and took the opportunity to conquer the areas.

pvaldes 6y ago
The picture is incomplete in any case. Some researchers talk about a sustained decline linked with environmental problems and bad manage of a too fast growing population long before the arrival of spanish. Paleontological data from Mexico show a dry period extended between 500 and 1150 A.D. Mayans where wipped just by environmental problems and climate change after they distroyed the nature trying to feed their growing population. It seems that we are wired to commit the same stupid mistake again and again (Ethiopy, Sahara, Indonesia, Brazil... No forest -> no water -> no agriculture -> no humans). Big cities where deserted by climate changes when agriculture stopped to work, entering in a "tragedy of commons" process. We must take in mind also that the "before" number is just that, a stimate. Is adopted because it fits with the narrative but is also possible that the population numbers given to invaders were inflated for tactical purposes.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  >Paleontological data from Mexico show a dry period extended between 500 and 1150 A.D. Mayans where wipped just by environmental problems and climate change after they distroyed the nature trying to feed their growing population This is 500-1000 years before the Spanish invasion. About as long ago as the Spanish conquest is to us. It is not a relevant event when considering the population at the time. >Is adopted because it fits with the narrative but is also possible that the population numbers given to invaders were inflated for tactical purposes. The narrative is that most of the death happens well outside the knowledge of the invaders, there isn't much trust in the invaders estimates as a whole.
  - pvaldes 6y ago
    > This is 500-1000 years before the Spanish invasion And some people still blame spanish conquerors today for it... This article is probably related with the Mexico independence celebrations planned for 2021. In this context maybe will be a temptation to reinforce the relate of spaniards bad / natives innocent (even if they ate the hearts of other people to appease their gods).
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      >And some people still blame spanish conquerors today for it... Rightfully so. That the area had experienced a separate collapse over five hundred years before is completely unrelated. >In this context maybe will be a temptation to reinforce the relate of spaniards bad / natives innocent (even if they ate the hearts of other people to appease their gods). The Spanish invaded, conquered, and enslaved. Nobody is claiming the native population were some saintly people who did nothing wrong, but the Spaniards were definitely bad. Bringing religion into it only makes them look worse.
      - pvaldes 6y ago
        > The Spanish invaded, conquered, and enslaved. Name me one single culture that never invaded, conquered and enslaved other people. From Egyptians to Romans, Chinese, Muslims, Aztecs, Belgians, and of course US Americans. Everybody did it, and the other are dead. Some people could argue that christianism, occidental medicine, and an unique lingua franca was definitely an improvement over the former myriad of isolated tribes unable to understand and speak with their neighbors, the trepanations to cure diseases, the wars against everybody and the human sacrifices and spreading terror as part of the way of life. The current situation can be improved of course, but nobody would want today a world with followers of mayan or aztec gods.

thedracle 6y ago

In the memoirs of Bernal Diaz Del Castillo, there were already several Spanish people living in the Yucatan when Cortez first landed in Veracruz. He documented evidence that some of these diseases had already made their rounds around the Americas before Cortez ever stepped foot on the continent: "Xicotencatl made various other offers of his services in the name of his country. This Xicotencatl was a tall man, broad shouldered, and well built, with a large fresh coloured face, full of scars, as if pitted with the smallpox." A specific case of smallpox did arrive later, according to the conquistador, on one of the ships sent by Governor Velázquez to capture Cortez (the ships were captured instead by Cortez, and their supplies used to take the Mexican capital): "But to return to Narvaez. He happened to have a negro servant with him ill with the smallpox, through whom this terrific disease, which, according to the accounts of the inhabitants, was previously unknown in the country, spread itself through New Spain, where it created the greater devastation, from the poor Indians, in their ignorance, solely applying cold water as a remedy, with which they constantly bathed themselves; so that vast numbers were cut off before they had the blessing of being received into the bosom of the Christian church." He goes on to document several contact dying from Smallpox afterwards. It does seem highly likely however though, that the moment Columbus made his expedition around the Caribbean, the introduction of these novel diseases already had likely begun spreading in waves through the Americas.