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I'm a computer programmer, lisper, emacser, vier, etc and I desire every program that I use daily to be compiled from source so that I can dig in whenever I nee

I'm a computer programmer, lisper, emacser, vier, etc and I desire every program that I use daily to be compiled from source so that I can dig in whenever I need to fix bugs, add features, or just curious how something is done. I also highly desire the ability to change the keybindings of any program I use to be what I want, generally following the VI model. I also do e-waste collection and pride myself on being as fast or faster than others using 10+ year old computers (writing this on my main laptop - a Thinkpad T60). So with that lead-in, a few months ago I switched to this laptop and had a glitch getting X to start so I decided to push the envelope as far as I can running on the framebuffer, hence "links -driver fb". The web has gotten slower and slower over the years and while there are some new kids on the block such as the next browser [1] that should give me what I need on X, links has been a win over and over, so far. No code to share yet, but I finally got (for %95) of website, the browser of my dreams. Lightning fast. It will fetch and render almost any page in less than a second, but one thing it was missing was some customability and expandability, hence the natural move to embed guile. So I now have a lisp that is my browser and I am in the process of exploring what that means. Full keyboard control, for everything. VI bindings. A cache from heaven that remembers everywhere I've been and never reloads unless I tell it. I can fly around history like you've never seen. Anyhoe, happy hacking! [1] https://nyxt.atlas.engineer https://nyxt.atlas.engineer

nsl73 6y ago
> A cache from heaven that remembers everywhere I've been and never reloads unless I tell it. I can fly around history like you've never seen. This would be a killer feature for me, especially if the cache was fully searchable.
- avmich 6y ago
  Back in 2001 there was a startup called IonKey which used early Lucene to search over all desktop documents - emails, Word docs, PDFs, browser cache... Didn't survive harsh post-dotcom crash.
  - phre4k 6y ago
    I just installed https://www.lesbonscomptes.com/recoll/ https://www.lesbonscomptes.com/recoll/ today and it's exactly that. Super extensible and super fast once you built an index. I only had to add a global file exclusion rule .* which prevents the indexer from scanning dotfiles. (The 'interesting' dotfiles are in a repo anyway)
wishinghand 6y ago
Off topic here but this line: > I desire every program that I use daily to be compiled from source so that I can dig in whenever I need to fix bugs, add features For those who alter software they didn't write, how do you maintain those changes? I assume pull requests for bug fixes to the maintainer's repo, but what about mods? Do you run a diff during every update?
- pwdisswordfish2 6y ago
  Links is relatively small and does not change that often. I just save patches I make for different versions. I am not really keen on software that is 1. large and 2. changing frequently. For example, there are no "updates" when using links. I read the links changelog and do a diff before I decide to upgrade to the latest version. Sometimes I will continue to use older versions. Depends on the changes. In general, if the software is relatively small and more or less "finished", then, for me, it is more amenable to making changes. When I look at the software I use, it appears I consciously try to choose software that meet those criteria; the most favoured programs all fit that description.
- jlg23 6y ago
  Patches. This is stable enough for any software stable enough to be used daily.
_emacsomancer_ 6y ago
> No code to share yet, but I finally got (for %95) of website, the browser of my dreams. > Lightning fast. It will fetch and render almost any page in less than a second, but one thing it was missing was some customability and expandability, hence the natural move to embed guile. So I now have a lisp that is my browser and I am in the process of exploring what that means. Full keyboard control, for everything. VI bindings. A cache from heaven that remembers everywhere I've been and never reloads unless I tell it. I can fly around history like you've never seen. Why do you tease us? More seriously, I'll be interested when/if you do have code to share - this sounds great.
fouc 6y ago
I weirdly love staying in console in framebuffer. So much more pure and direct than running X and then running a terminal app inside X. I always found the framebuffer resolution pleasing to my eyes. There's apparently an old version of firefox that was able to run in framebuffer at one point. The links browser with graphics option apparently is a more current and robust option of getting a browser in framebuffer. Super interested in hearing more about what you're using for a framebuffer browser!
- efreak 6y ago
  Some minimal/framebuffer/cli browser links from my bookmarks: - https://www.brow.sh https://www.brow.sh is a cli (not framebuffer) browser based on a Firefox plugin - https://www.uzbl.org https://www.uzbl.org is a set of python scripts implementing a browser - https://github.com/balenalabs/balena-wpe https://github.com/balenalabs/balena-wpe is WPEWebkit with framebuffer output - https://github.com/TOLDOTECHNIK/buildroot-webkit https://github.com/TOLDOTECHNIK/buildroot-webkit is another WPEWebkit, but I'm not sure if it's got framebuffer support or not
- h1x 6y ago
  linux console user here too :-). w3m works really great with framebuffer. imho it renders webpages in a cleanset way, compared to all other text browsers. plus it has default vim-like keybindings.
mulmen 6y ago
I’m several MacBooks deep at this point but my last non-Mac was a Thinkpad T61. I had a T60 before that. I’m not sure what was better, my T60 or my 2014 RMBP. Not sure what I will buy next. I hear good things about the X1 Carbon. They seem to be plentiful.
dleslie 6y ago
Please, _please_ share that code. The democratic web is dead, and navigating the silo'd web is dreadful without one of the three blessed browsers. It sounds like you've created a ray of hope.
eafkuor 6y ago
This is impressive but damn it makes me feel stupid. I never felt the need for any of these features, and I'm completely happy with almost vanilla firefox with tree style tabs. I feel like I'm missing something.
- minerjoe 6y ago
  It's about limitations breeding necessity. I continually limit my computer capabilities primiarily to enable innovation. So imagine yourself required to use an older computer on a spotty internet connection (off for days), and you'll see the value in some of these things. That vanilla firefox doesn't seem so snappy any longer and is almost completely useless without a direct and fast internet connection. Links will start to look like a game-changer and once you get a searchable offline cache of all your web explorations you'll never want to go back to the old world of completely dependent on others for your daily bread.
cookiengineer 6y ago
Nyxt actually looks very nice. Very nice, indeed. I really like the navigational features, because they seem to be both memorable and predictable based on the layout that you're seeing (whereas others like vimb are totally unpredictable in their behaviour). When it comes to making the web usable again, with less cache busting being enforced on the client's browser, I guess we share similar goals. I'm currently trying to solve it via peer-to-peer services and the idea of trusted peers - that also function as caches in the local network and e.g. share download streams with each other once a huge file is being downloaded by a trusted peer. [1] Personally, though I've been using VIM for as long as I can code, I would not agree that we need another browser that's keyboard-navigated. For me, the understanding of websites and the semantic automation aspect is far more important so my UI/UX ideas are different. I'm trying to automate by recording user interactions rather than automate by keyboard shortcuts. The underlying idea is that any non-programming user can automate their own actions on the web. [1] https://github.com/cookiengineer/stealth https://github.com/cookiengineer/stealth (currently a PWA with a local node.js process that does all the heavy work)
apatters 6y ago
A quick trip down the rabbit hole (and my package manager) after reading this article revealed that the author of links has also produced links2 and xlinks2, which support very limited formatting (like showing text in a few different sizes). It also has image support which can be toggled via a hotkey. I found the browsing experience with xlinks2 to be more pleasant than with regular links, and like with links, every page loads almost instantly.
mhd 6y ago
Never mind the scripting and frugality, I'm quite interested in the cache setup. Do you get any notifications that the current state isn't what's displayed, similar to what you get in text editor buffers?

nsl73 6y ago

> A cache from heaven that remembers everywhere I've been and never reloads unless I tell it. I can fly around history like you've never seen. This would be a killer feature for me, especially if the cache was fully searchable.

avmich 6y ago
Back in 2001 there was a startup called IonKey which used early Lucene to search over all desktop documents - emails, Word docs, PDFs, browser cache... Didn't survive harsh post-dotcom crash.
- phre4k 6y ago
  I just installed https://www.lesbonscomptes.com/recoll/ https://www.lesbonscomptes.com/recoll/ today and it's exactly that. Super extensible and super fast once you built an index. I only had to add a global file exclusion rule .* which prevents the indexer from scanning dotfiles. (The 'interesting' dotfiles are in a repo anyway)

wishinghand 6y ago

Off topic here but this line: > I desire every program that I use daily to be compiled from source so that I can dig in whenever I need to fix bugs, add features For those who alter software they didn't write, how do you maintain those changes? I assume pull requests for bug fixes to the maintainer's repo, but what about mods? Do you run a diff during every update?

pwdisswordfish2 6y ago
Links is relatively small and does not change that often. I just save patches I make for different versions. I am not really keen on software that is 1. large and 2. changing frequently. For example, there are no "updates" when using links. I read the links changelog and do a diff before I decide to upgrade to the latest version. Sometimes I will continue to use older versions. Depends on the changes. In general, if the software is relatively small and more or less "finished", then, for me, it is more amenable to making changes. When I look at the software I use, it appears I consciously try to choose software that meet those criteria; the most favoured programs all fit that description.
jlg23 6y ago
Patches. This is stable enough for any software stable enough to be used daily.

_emacsomancer_ 6y ago

> No code to share yet, but I finally got (for %95) of website, the browser of my dreams. > Lightning fast. It will fetch and render almost any page in less than a second, but one thing it was missing was some customability and expandability, hence the natural move to embed guile. So I now have a lisp that is my browser and I am in the process of exploring what that means. Full keyboard control, for everything. VI bindings. A cache from heaven that remembers everywhere I've been and never reloads unless I tell it. I can fly around history like you've never seen. Why do you tease us? More seriously, I'll be interested when/if you do have code to share - this sounds great.

fouc 6y ago

I weirdly love staying in console in framebuffer. So much more pure and direct than running X and then running a terminal app inside X. I always found the framebuffer resolution pleasing to my eyes. There's apparently an old version of firefox that was able to run in framebuffer at one point. The links browser with graphics option apparently is a more current and robust option of getting a browser in framebuffer. Super interested in hearing more about what you're using for a framebuffer browser!

efreak 6y ago
Some minimal/framebuffer/cli browser links from my bookmarks: - https://www.brow.sh https://www.brow.sh is a cli (not framebuffer) browser based on a Firefox plugin - https://www.uzbl.org https://www.uzbl.org is a set of python scripts implementing a browser - https://github.com/balenalabs/balena-wpe https://github.com/balenalabs/balena-wpe is WPEWebkit with framebuffer output - https://github.com/TOLDOTECHNIK/buildroot-webkit https://github.com/TOLDOTECHNIK/buildroot-webkit is another WPEWebkit, but I'm not sure if it's got framebuffer support or not
h1x 6y ago
linux console user here too :-). w3m works really great with framebuffer. imho it renders webpages in a cleanset way, compared to all other text browsers. plus it has default vim-like keybindings.

mulmen 6y ago

I’m several MacBooks deep at this point but my last non-Mac was a Thinkpad T61. I had a T60 before that. I’m not sure what was better, my T60 or my 2014 RMBP. Not sure what I will buy next. I hear good things about the X1 Carbon. They seem to be plentiful.

dleslie 6y ago

Please, _please_ share that code. The democratic web is dead, and navigating the silo'd web is dreadful without one of the three blessed browsers. It sounds like you've created a ray of hope.

eafkuor 6y ago

This is impressive but damn it makes me feel stupid. I never felt the need for any of these features, and I'm completely happy with almost vanilla firefox with tree style tabs. I feel like I'm missing something.

minerjoe 6y ago
It's about limitations breeding necessity. I continually limit my computer capabilities primiarily to enable innovation. So imagine yourself required to use an older computer on a spotty internet connection (off for days), and you'll see the value in some of these things. That vanilla firefox doesn't seem so snappy any longer and is almost completely useless without a direct and fast internet connection. Links will start to look like a game-changer and once you get a searchable offline cache of all your web explorations you'll never want to go back to the old world of completely dependent on others for your daily bread.

cookiengineer 6y ago

Nyxt actually looks very nice. Very nice, indeed. I really like the navigational features, because they seem to be both memorable and predictable based on the layout that you're seeing (whereas others like vimb are totally unpredictable in their behaviour). When it comes to making the web usable again, with less cache busting being enforced on the client's browser, I guess we share similar goals. I'm currently trying to solve it via peer-to-peer services and the idea of trusted peers - that also function as caches in the local network and e.g. share download streams with each other once a huge file is being downloaded by a trusted peer. [1] Personally, though I've been using VIM for as long as I can code, I would not agree that we need another browser that's keyboard-navigated. For me, the understanding of websites and the semantic automation aspect is far more important so my UI/UX ideas are different. I'm trying to automate by recording user interactions rather than automate by keyboard shortcuts. The underlying idea is that any non-programming user can automate their own actions on the web. [1] https://github.com/cookiengineer/stealth https://github.com/cookiengineer/stealth (currently a PWA with a local node.js process that does all the heavy work)

apatters 6y ago

A quick trip down the rabbit hole (and my package manager) after reading this article revealed that the author of links has also produced links2 and xlinks2, which support very limited formatting (like showing text in a few different sizes). It also has image support which can be toggled via a hotkey. I found the browsing experience with xlinks2 to be more pleasant than with regular links, and like with links, every page loads almost instantly.

mhd 6y ago

Never mind the scripting and frugality, I'm quite interested in the cache setup. Do you get any notifications that the current state isn't what's displayed, similar to what you get in text editor buffers?