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It's not an easy task to make an extremely efficient and sleek design, and still make it easy to disassemble/reassemble/upgrade/etc. The strides Apple has made

It's not an easy task to make an extremely efficient and sleek design, and still make it easy to disassemble/reassemble/upgrade/etc. The strides Apple has made to make devices smaller, more efficient, and more powerful are incredible. Though they come with obvious downsides. Cramming all that tech into a small space means you don't have an easy "click to remove" battery cell any longer - or hard drive, or memory sticks, or floppy drive bay... ;) Not to negate your point - battery lifetimes are quite poor compared to the lifetimes of all other electronics in a computer and making them easily replaceable would be ideal. Do we want smaller, faster, more efficient computers, or do we want easily modable computers? Obviously both would be ideal, just not sure if that's really feasible with the way the technology is progressing.

markholmes 6y ago
We’re talking about a difference in thickness of millimeters though. Was my 2014 Macbook Pro really that bulky? The prevailing sentiment over the last several Apple announcements seems to have been “fewer gimmicks, more power”. Maybe software engineers aren’t the target market for these computers anymore though, or perhaps my bubble is too small.
coralreef 6y ago
Thin and sleek are "nice to haves". Reduced environmental impact should be "musts".
- minhazm 6y ago
  Thinner, lighter and overall smaller footprint also have noticeable environmental impact. You have to ship these products and at millions of devices these things add up. The battery is also replaceable by Apple. People also recycle their computers, in which case a lot of these raw materials are recovered too.
rakoo 6y ago
> Do we want smaller, faster, more efficient computers, or do we want easily modable computers? It's not about making them moddable, it's about making them more sustainable. Of course everyone's values differ, but wanting to repair your own stuff is something that has become more than just gimmicky, and for good reason in my opinion.
TYPE_FASTER 6y ago
I upgraded the RAM, did two hard drive swaps, and replaced the battery in my 2009 MBP. That laptop case also had less flex to it than the 2018 MBP I'm using today. I would much rather have a thicker but upgradeable/maintainable/solid laptop than the current models. Thermal management on the 2018 models is also not great. Ambient temps on my house didn't really impact the 2009 model, but they definitely do for the 2018 version. I think most of this comes from processor improvements over those nine years, so there's a tradeoff, but don't know for sure. Only ARM will tell. Totally agree that the efficiency and power management on the iPhone line is amazing. They've done a lot of work there. So far, the batteries in my iPhones have lasted about as long as the rest of the device, typically four years. The possibility of a convergent device, like an iPhone I could use with an external display and keyboard (see https://youtu.be/yBeza4UNOm8 https://youtu.be/yBeza4UNOm8), is intriguing. I would like that. And I would be more likely to accept the compromises for that form factor, because I can get down to one computing device. But just having a sleeker design is not enough for the tradeoffs I see with the vintage vs. modern MBP line.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  Everyone says this because they never have to put their money where there mouth is and daily drive a behemoth like the old MBPs. My mom uses my 2010 MBP. The thing is enormous, ridiculously heavy. Huge, hard to fit in a backpack. Battery life is mediocre. It gets pretty hot too despite its size. I would never go back to then, nor would most consumers. I want my laptop to last a long time and be portable. People moan about upgrades but I doubt that is even half a percent of Apple's consumer base now.
  - _qulr 6y ago
    I would go back to my 2006 17-inch MacBook Pro form factor in a second. Best laptop I've ever owned. Well designed. There used to be a distinction between Pro and non-Pro. If you valued light and small over power, then you'd buy the non-Pro Mac. But Apple won't let us make the tradeoff anymore. Do Pro users even want the Touch Bar? Mostly not.
    - 6y ago
ohazi 6y ago
> It's not an easy task to make an extremely efficient and sleek design, and still make it easy to disassemble/reassemble/upgrade/etc. If we're just talking about the battery, that's bullshit. 1) They could use Phillips or even Torx screw heads instead of Apple's Pentalobe screw head. The back already comes off relatively easily. 2) The batteries are already connectorized, but they could use a pull-tab adhesive or a thin screw plate to secure the battery instead of fucking epoxy. There's zero space for the cells to move... they're not going to slide around. The only thing the glue does is guarantee that you're going to destroy the cells when you attempt to remove them. 3) They could sell replacement cells on their website like every other manufacturer. Socketed mobile CPUs are probably never coming back, but RAM and SSD sockets are still a trade-off for pretty much every other manufacturer. Nobody is surprised by Apple's direction here, but it's absolutely possible to design a nice, high-end thin and light laptop with socketed RAM and storage, and many manufacturers are doing just that.
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
It's just laziness. The interior of modern laptops is mostly space that can be filled by batteries. Laptop packaging is far easier than it was 25 years ago. A screw on cover and a pluggable cable aren't going to ruin anybody's precious design.
benologist 6y ago
I think if there is any company that could wow us with upgradeability and repairability, it would be Apple after they decided to innovate in those areas.

markholmes 6y ago

We’re talking about a difference in thickness of millimeters though. Was my 2014 Macbook Pro really that bulky? The prevailing sentiment over the last several Apple announcements seems to have been “fewer gimmicks, more power”. Maybe software engineers aren’t the target market for these computers anymore though, or perhaps my bubble is too small.

coralreef 6y ago

Thin and sleek are "nice to haves". Reduced environmental impact should be "musts".

minhazm 6y ago
Thinner, lighter and overall smaller footprint also have noticeable environmental impact. You have to ship these products and at millions of devices these things add up. The battery is also replaceable by Apple. People also recycle their computers, in which case a lot of these raw materials are recovered too.

rakoo 6y ago

> Do we want smaller, faster, more efficient computers, or do we want easily modable computers? It's not about making them moddable, it's about making them more sustainable. Of course everyone's values differ, but wanting to repair your own stuff is something that has become more than just gimmicky, and for good reason in my opinion.

TYPE_FASTER 6y ago

I upgraded the RAM, did two hard drive swaps, and replaced the battery in my 2009 MBP. That laptop case also had less flex to it than the 2018 MBP I'm using today. I would much rather have a thicker but upgradeable/maintainable/solid laptop than the current models. Thermal management on the 2018 models is also not great. Ambient temps on my house didn't really impact the 2009 model, but they definitely do for the 2018 version. I think most of this comes from processor improvements over those nine years, so there's a tradeoff, but don't know for sure. Only ARM will tell. Totally agree that the efficiency and power management on the iPhone line is amazing. They've done a lot of work there. So far, the batteries in my iPhones have lasted about as long as the rest of the device, typically four years. The possibility of a convergent device, like an iPhone I could use with an external display and keyboard (see https://youtu.be/yBeza4UNOm8 https://youtu.be/yBeza4UNOm8), is intriguing. I would like that. And I would be more likely to accept the compromises for that form factor, because I can get down to one computing device. But just having a sleeker design is not enough for the tradeoffs I see with the vintage vs. modern MBP line.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
Everyone says this because they never have to put their money where there mouth is and daily drive a behemoth like the old MBPs. My mom uses my 2010 MBP. The thing is enormous, ridiculously heavy. Huge, hard to fit in a backpack. Battery life is mediocre. It gets pretty hot too despite its size. I would never go back to then, nor would most consumers. I want my laptop to last a long time and be portable. People moan about upgrades but I doubt that is even half a percent of Apple's consumer base now.
- _qulr 6y ago
  I would go back to my 2006 17-inch MacBook Pro form factor in a second. Best laptop I've ever owned. Well designed. There used to be a distinction between Pro and non-Pro. If you valued light and small over power, then you'd buy the non-Pro Mac. But Apple won't let us make the tradeoff anymore. Do Pro users even want the Touch Bar? Mostly not.
  - 6y ago

ohazi 6y ago

> It's not an easy task to make an extremely efficient and sleek design, and still make it easy to disassemble/reassemble/upgrade/etc. If we're just talking about the battery, that's bullshit. 1) They could use Phillips or even Torx screw heads instead of Apple's Pentalobe screw head. The back already comes off relatively easily. 2) The batteries are already connectorized, but they could use a pull-tab adhesive or a thin screw plate to secure the battery instead of fucking epoxy. There's zero space for the cells to move... they're not going to slide around. The only thing the glue does is guarantee that you're going to destroy the cells when you attempt to remove them. 3) They could sell replacement cells on their website like every other manufacturer. Socketed mobile CPUs are probably never coming back, but RAM and SSD sockets are still a trade-off for pretty much every other manufacturer. Nobody is surprised by Apple's direction here, but it's absolutely possible to design a nice, high-end thin and light laptop with socketed RAM and storage, and many manufacturers are doing just that.

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago

It's just laziness. The interior of modern laptops is mostly space that can be filled by batteries. Laptop packaging is far easier than it was 25 years ago. A screw on cover and a pluggable cable aren't going to ruin anybody's precious design.

benologist 6y ago

I think if there is any company that could wow us with upgradeability and repairability, it would be Apple after they decided to innovate in those areas.