7 ms·

Eventually, ALL automotive production records will be held by EVs, only question is when.

kmonsen 6y ago
Not long range, unless you allow for gimmicks like changing batteries that will not be available for the general population.
- reducesuffering 6y ago
  The 200k Tesla Roadster is expected to have 600 mile range. What ICE car exceeds that? Most ICE are at about ~450 mile range, Model S is at 400 now. There's going to be a lot of battery improvements over the next couple decades pushing EV range far past ICE.
  - loeg 6y ago
    My mid-2010s Subaru SUV has ~550 mile range, and fill-ups take ~5 minutes. Semis can have 2000+ mile ranges. I am also excited to see battery densities increase, but so far the way we're getting comparable range in EVs is by allocating a greater proportion of weight to fuel. And recharging is still relatively slow.
    - Diederich 6y ago
      Right; see my other comment about recent experiences with a long drive in a Tesla Model S. nothing beats the distance over time you can get with a gas vehicle, given also how quickly you can add range. Many years ago, we used to drive from the midwest to California every year, which was two 800 mile days. We covered that 800 miles in about 13 hours, which is an average of 60 miles per hour. A few weeks ago, we drove 800 miles in our Tesla, and did it in 16.5 hours, which is a little less than 50 miles per hour. Which is quite respectable actually.
    - magnetic 6y ago
      > And recharging is still relatively slow. I know not all EVs are Tesla, but it's interesting to see where charging is going (others will follow suit). Supercharging v3 gives you 1,000 miles of range per hour of charge (approx. if you're in the 20-80% SOC range I think). If you take a 6 min bathroom (or other) break every 100 miles (roughly every couple of hours), you can replenish those 100 miles during that break. Personally, I find superchargers "too quick", as I tend to stop for lunch with my family when I supercharge, and I find myself having to rush to finish lunch so I can get the car out of the charger for someone else to be able to use it. I wish there was an option to say "charge slower and give that juice to the other guy" (many/most current supercharger "pods" have to share the current flow with another car). https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging
      - loeg 6y ago
        > Personally, I find superchargers "too quick", as I tend to stop for lunch with my family when I supercharge, and I find myself having to rush to finish lunch so I can get the car out… Pumping gas, I usually do not have time to even squeegee all the windows; I've never wanted to stop for lunch while getting gas.
        rbanffy 6y ago
        The routine is different. You fill the tank, then park and get lunch. If you recharge while parked, the recharge time should approximate the duration of your lunch stop. Abundance of chargers may remove the urge to take the car out of the recharger before you finish lunch.
  - ruste 6y ago
    And then the EV has to stop and charge for a couple hours. The ICE stops for gas for 10min. Also, check out records like the cross-country NY to LA cannonball run. Cars used there add additional gas tanks to extend range. I'd bet by the time you added enough fuel to a car to equate the weight of an EV battery the range would be significantly higher than that of the EV
    - j88439h84 6y ago
      > And then the EV has to stop and charge for a couple hours. 600 mi at 10mi/hr is 10 hours, so probably ready for a break.
      - filoleg 6y ago
        > And then the EV has to stop and charge for a couple hours. Also, it isn't a couple of hours at all. 10% to 90% charge in model 3 takes about 50 minutes using a V2 supercharger (the most ubiquitous one) and about 40 mins using a V3 supercharger. And both take much faster to get to lower percentages, due to the charge rate curve looking more like a log(1/x) graph, with rapid charge rate at the beginning that slows down the more your car is charged.
        viklove 6y ago
        An hour is still a hell of a long time to wait for your car to fill up, especially when you're used to going from 5% to 100% in ~10 minutes.
        filoleg 6y ago
        Again, the charge time is non-linear. You can get from 0 to 50% in just 20 mins. And also, if you are doing a long drive, won't you be stopping for 20-30 mins at least every 200-300 miles (roughly every 3 hours)? Just for bathroom breaks, to get some food, to stand up and stretch, etc.? Imo, this doesn't seem that bad at all. I had the same kind of anxiety over charging too, but since getting an EV and doing multiple cross-state road trips in it and with just tons of daily usage, I found that worry to be unfounded.
  - objclxt 6y ago
    > The 200k Tesla Roadster is expected to have 600 mile range. What ICE car exceeds that? A large number of diesel cars can easily go over 600 miles. The Audi A8 and VW Jetta, to pick two random examples, can go 650+ miles on a single tank.
    - reducesuffering 6y ago
      Aren't these essentially banned from new production due their extreme particulate pollution?
      - toast0 6y ago
        I don't think particulates was an issue (but I couldbe wrong). The main issue was Nitrogen Oxide emissions. Basically, when not in emissions testing mode, the engine was running at higher temperatures which improves fuel efficiency but generates more NO from atmospheric Nitrogen. Also, the vehicles had insufficently sized or simply missing diesel exhaust fluid (mostly urea and blue coloring) resevoirs, so not enough was injected to react with the NO to hit targets; injecting DEF into the engine also reduces fuel efficiency. There was also something about not properly cycling the special catalytic converter for NO, which would probably show an efficiency difference on long trips. I sold back my VW diesel and stopped paying attention, it would be interesting to see what the measured real life fuel efficiency is before and after the changes required by regulators.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - GuB-42 6y ago
    Gasoline has more than 10x the energy density of Li-ion batteries, with relative efficiency taken into account. I don't expect to see BEV exceeding ICE in range anytime soon. Long haul trucks can do 2000 miles no problem, and extending the range is just a matter of adding more tanks. For now, there is no real competition over range in ICE cars, but if that becomes a thing, you can't win with batteries. The only batteries that could compete would be lithium-air, and they are still in research phase, with no large scale commercial use in sight yet.
    - Darvon 6y ago
      What if instead of adding more tanks of petrol, you added more trailers of batteries.
      - slaman 6y ago
        Because the energy density problem. A trailer of fuel holds more energy than a trailer of batteries for the same weight. No matter how much battery you add, it's always possible to get more range with less weight in fuel, and with less diminishing returns.
        rbanffy 6y ago
        Energy density is just part of the equation. EV's also can use regenerative braking and recharge when going downhill. That's how Tesla's achieve their mileage. Electric engines are substantially more compact and lighter than similarly powered ICE's, giving more mass and volume budget to add extra batteries. In the specific case of trucks, in most places you can't demand a driver to do a 2000 mile leg on a single stretch and, with the required pause to rest, it's also easy to recharge. A limit of 700 miles should be considered a reasonable target for truck range on a single charge. Airplanes are probably the place where internal combustion (or not quite internal, but still combustion, as turboprop and jets are not ICE's) will have a significant share for a long time. Even there, short haul small planes are already electrifying.
  - toast0 6y ago
    It's a PHEV, but my Ford C-Max Energi will do over 600 miles on the 14 gallon tank in long distance driving (full charge gets you 20ish miles of stop and go, or 5 miles of highway, so basically doesn't matter). I'd guess the HEV version should do better, as it has less battery weight, but is otherwise pretty similar AFAIK. Many cars have 16-20 gallon tanks, so a 14 gallon is fairly small (although 600+ miles is plenty)
  - RandomBacon 6y ago
    My 2019 gasoline truck can. (Dodge Ram)
    - mywittyname 6y ago
      Dual gas tanks FTW.
      - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        Unless someone recently started doing it again trucks don't come with dual tanks anymore and haven't since the OEMs refreshed their designs in the mid to late 1990s.
        RandomBacon 6y ago
        Mine just has a single 33 gallon tank (and I can get over 20 miles per gallon on the highway).
  - FDSGSG 6y ago
    > What ICE car exceeds that? BMW 730Ld will do 1000 miles. Even the petrol 740Li will manage over 700 miles.
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    >What ICE car exceeds that? Pretty much pickup truck with the base 6cyl engine from the days when an 8ft bed also resulted in the vehicle being equipped with two gas tanks. Also tons of random sedans beat 600mi.
  - brohee 6y ago
    Someone beat the cannonball record (NY to LA) during the confinement with only one fuel stop... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvQFDtJUdHw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvQFDtJUdHw
    - loeg 6y ago
      They (and every other recent cannonball) retrofitted aftermarket fuel tanks to their trunk.
      - brohee 6y ago
        Off course, and actually more than the trunk, rear seats and even passenger seat in that case, but you absolutely cannot do that to a meaningful usefulness with extra batteries.
  - dghughes 6y ago
    >What ICE car exceeds that? When it was new (3 - 5 years old) my Dodge 2500 turbo diesel with a 120 liter fuel tank (31.7 US gallons) went 1,000km (620 miles) per tank. That's highway miles of course but 1,000km per tank is not exactly mind blowing it works out to 23.5 Imperial mpg or 18 US mpg. An old cow-orker of mine said his old VW Rabbit diesel manual trans did 80 Imperial mpg (66 US mpg) on the highway. I have no way to verify that could be 10% BS. I've seen 50 US mpg stated (60 Imperial mpg). But who know synthetic oil, slim tires, highway miles, slow speeds all that may get it to the 70s mpg.
  - acdha 6y ago
    The VW Jetta TDI I bought in 1999 got over 50mpg on the highway (mid-40s city) and had a 14.5 gallon tank. The longest I ever got it was ~700 miles at an average of 52mpg.
  - jjeaff 6y ago
    My 2007 Chevy Avalanche. And that's actual freeway miles in a car that actually exists. I have no doubt, musk will get the new roadster out there. But I have no reason to believe he isn't overpromising on the mileage.
- Diederich 6y ago
  More specifically, it's range over time. We made a recent long trip with our Tesla Model S, which has about a 325 mile max range. There were plenty of superchargers, but it takes time. You also end up stopping a lot more than once every 300 miles, because the rate of charge up to 90% is very fast, but the last 10% is very slow. We usually ran down to between 50 and 100 miles of range, and charged it up to about 290-300 miles, which took between 15 and 20 minutes. It's not terrible, but compared to a gas engine, it's a good bit slower over time. On the upside, it forces you to have a more 'easy going' drive.
  - ravedave5 6y ago
    The ICE vs Electric cannonball run records show this very clearly.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    Speaking as a child subjected to routine 2 hour road trips each way (often coming back the next day, once in a while the same day) and occasionally much longer road trips: Stop the damned car and let your family out for fuck's sake. Just because you can drive >4 hours nonstop doesn't mean you should drive 4 hours nonstop (I did on a solo road trip earlier this year. I forgot a piece of equipment and didn't realize until I was 5 miles out of town, so I had to 'make up time'. It was still a mistake.) Complaining that you can't drive 6 hours nonstop is some form of insanity that I am not qualified to diagnose.
    - justrudd 6y ago
      If I'm traveling with someone, I'll stop every 2/3 hours. But if I'm by myself (and was still in my 20s)? I'm going to optimize every second (Gatorade bottles FTW). No reason other than to say I did...
      - hinkley 6y ago
        Done that plenty myself, but eventually I figured out that being sedentary that long starts to affect my alertness. Getting out of the car and getting the blood pumping makes me much more alert for the next hour or two. At first I didn't want to think about that meant about how alert I wasn't for the previous hour. Now it's kind of hard to ignore.

Not long range, unless you allow for gimmicks like changing batteries that will not be available for the general population.

reducesuffering 6y ago
The 200k Tesla Roadster is expected to have 600 mile range. What ICE car exceeds that? Most ICE are at about ~450 mile range, Model S is at 400 now. There's going to be a lot of battery improvements over the next couple decades pushing EV range far past ICE.
- loeg 6y ago
  My mid-2010s Subaru SUV has ~550 mile range, and fill-ups take ~5 minutes. Semis can have 2000+ mile ranges. I am also excited to see battery densities increase, but so far the way we're getting comparable range in EVs is by allocating a greater proportion of weight to fuel. And recharging is still relatively slow.
  - Diederich 6y ago
    Right; see my other comment about recent experiences with a long drive in a Tesla Model S. nothing beats the distance over time you can get with a gas vehicle, given also how quickly you can add range. Many years ago, we used to drive from the midwest to California every year, which was two 800 mile days. We covered that 800 miles in about 13 hours, which is an average of 60 miles per hour. A few weeks ago, we drove 800 miles in our Tesla, and did it in 16.5 hours, which is a little less than 50 miles per hour. Which is quite respectable actually.
  - magnetic 6y ago
    > And recharging is still relatively slow. I know not all EVs are Tesla, but it's interesting to see where charging is going (others will follow suit). Supercharging v3 gives you 1,000 miles of range per hour of charge (approx. if you're in the 20-80% SOC range I think). If you take a 6 min bathroom (or other) break every 100 miles (roughly every couple of hours), you can replenish those 100 miles during that break. Personally, I find superchargers "too quick", as I tend to stop for lunch with my family when I supercharge, and I find myself having to rush to finish lunch so I can get the car out of the charger for someone else to be able to use it. I wish there was an option to say "charge slower and give that juice to the other guy" (many/most current supercharger "pods" have to share the current flow with another car). https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-v3-supercharging
    - loeg 6y ago
      > Personally, I find superchargers "too quick", as I tend to stop for lunch with my family when I supercharge, and I find myself having to rush to finish lunch so I can get the car out… Pumping gas, I usually do not have time to even squeegee all the windows; I've never wanted to stop for lunch while getting gas.
      - rbanffy 6y ago
        The routine is different. You fill the tank, then park and get lunch. If you recharge while parked, the recharge time should approximate the duration of your lunch stop. Abundance of chargers may remove the urge to take the car out of the recharger before you finish lunch.
- ruste 6y ago
  And then the EV has to stop and charge for a couple hours. The ICE stops for gas for 10min. Also, check out records like the cross-country NY to LA cannonball run. Cars used there add additional gas tanks to extend range. I'd bet by the time you added enough fuel to a car to equate the weight of an EV battery the range would be significantly higher than that of the EV
  - j88439h84 6y ago
    > And then the EV has to stop and charge for a couple hours. 600 mi at 10mi/hr is 10 hours, so probably ready for a break.
    - filoleg 6y ago
      > And then the EV has to stop and charge for a couple hours. Also, it isn't a couple of hours at all. 10% to 90% charge in model 3 takes about 50 minutes using a V2 supercharger (the most ubiquitous one) and about 40 mins using a V3 supercharger. And both take much faster to get to lower percentages, due to the charge rate curve looking more like a log(1/x) graph, with rapid charge rate at the beginning that slows down the more your car is charged.
      - viklove 6y ago
        An hour is still a hell of a long time to wait for your car to fill up, especially when you're used to going from 5% to 100% in ~10 minutes.
        filoleg 6y ago
        Again, the charge time is non-linear. You can get from 0 to 50% in just 20 mins. And also, if you are doing a long drive, won't you be stopping for 20-30 mins at least every 200-300 miles (roughly every 3 hours)? Just for bathroom breaks, to get some food, to stand up and stretch, etc.? Imo, this doesn't seem that bad at all. I had the same kind of anxiety over charging too, but since getting an EV and doing multiple cross-state road trips in it and with just tons of daily usage, I found that worry to be unfounded.
- objclxt 6y ago
  > The 200k Tesla Roadster is expected to have 600 mile range. What ICE car exceeds that? A large number of diesel cars can easily go over 600 miles. The Audi A8 and VW Jetta, to pick two random examples, can go 650+ miles on a single tank.
  - reducesuffering 6y ago
    Aren't these essentially banned from new production due their extreme particulate pollution?
    - toast0 6y ago
      I don't think particulates was an issue (but I couldbe wrong). The main issue was Nitrogen Oxide emissions. Basically, when not in emissions testing mode, the engine was running at higher temperatures which improves fuel efficiency but generates more NO from atmospheric Nitrogen. Also, the vehicles had insufficently sized or simply missing diesel exhaust fluid (mostly urea and blue coloring) resevoirs, so not enough was injected to react with the NO to hit targets; injecting DEF into the engine also reduces fuel efficiency. There was also something about not properly cycling the special catalytic converter for NO, which would probably show an efficiency difference on long trips. I sold back my VW diesel and stopped paying attention, it would be interesting to see what the measured real life fuel efficiency is before and after the changes required by regulators.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- GuB-42 6y ago
  Gasoline has more than 10x the energy density of Li-ion batteries, with relative efficiency taken into account. I don't expect to see BEV exceeding ICE in range anytime soon. Long haul trucks can do 2000 miles no problem, and extending the range is just a matter of adding more tanks. For now, there is no real competition over range in ICE cars, but if that becomes a thing, you can't win with batteries. The only batteries that could compete would be lithium-air, and they are still in research phase, with no large scale commercial use in sight yet.
  - Darvon 6y ago
    What if instead of adding more tanks of petrol, you added more trailers of batteries.
    - slaman 6y ago
      Because the energy density problem. A trailer of fuel holds more energy than a trailer of batteries for the same weight. No matter how much battery you add, it's always possible to get more range with less weight in fuel, and with less diminishing returns.
      - rbanffy 6y ago
        Energy density is just part of the equation. EV's also can use regenerative braking and recharge when going downhill. That's how Tesla's achieve their mileage. Electric engines are substantially more compact and lighter than similarly powered ICE's, giving more mass and volume budget to add extra batteries. In the specific case of trucks, in most places you can't demand a driver to do a 2000 mile leg on a single stretch and, with the required pause to rest, it's also easy to recharge. A limit of 700 miles should be considered a reasonable target for truck range on a single charge. Airplanes are probably the place where internal combustion (or not quite internal, but still combustion, as turboprop and jets are not ICE's) will have a significant share for a long time. Even there, short haul small planes are already electrifying.
- toast0 6y ago
  It's a PHEV, but my Ford C-Max Energi will do over 600 miles on the 14 gallon tank in long distance driving (full charge gets you 20ish miles of stop and go, or 5 miles of highway, so basically doesn't matter). I'd guess the HEV version should do better, as it has less battery weight, but is otherwise pretty similar AFAIK. Many cars have 16-20 gallon tanks, so a 14 gallon is fairly small (although 600+ miles is plenty)
- RandomBacon 6y ago
  My 2019 gasoline truck can. (Dodge Ram)
  - mywittyname 6y ago
    Dual gas tanks FTW.
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      Unless someone recently started doing it again trucks don't come with dual tanks anymore and haven't since the OEMs refreshed their designs in the mid to late 1990s.
      - RandomBacon 6y ago
        Mine just has a single 33 gallon tank (and I can get over 20 miles per gallon on the highway).
- FDSGSG 6y ago
  > What ICE car exceeds that? BMW 730Ld will do 1000 miles. Even the petrol 740Li will manage over 700 miles.
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  >What ICE car exceeds that? Pretty much pickup truck with the base 6cyl engine from the days when an 8ft bed also resulted in the vehicle being equipped with two gas tanks. Also tons of random sedans beat 600mi.
- brohee 6y ago
  Someone beat the cannonball record (NY to LA) during the confinement with only one fuel stop... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvQFDtJUdHw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvQFDtJUdHw
  - loeg 6y ago
    They (and every other recent cannonball) retrofitted aftermarket fuel tanks to their trunk.
    - brohee 6y ago
      Off course, and actually more than the trunk, rear seats and even passenger seat in that case, but you absolutely cannot do that to a meaningful usefulness with extra batteries.
- dghughes 6y ago
  >What ICE car exceeds that? When it was new (3 - 5 years old) my Dodge 2500 turbo diesel with a 120 liter fuel tank (31.7 US gallons) went 1,000km (620 miles) per tank. That's highway miles of course but 1,000km per tank is not exactly mind blowing it works out to 23.5 Imperial mpg or 18 US mpg. An old cow-orker of mine said his old VW Rabbit diesel manual trans did 80 Imperial mpg (66 US mpg) on the highway. I have no way to verify that could be 10% BS. I've seen 50 US mpg stated (60 Imperial mpg). But who know synthetic oil, slim tires, highway miles, slow speeds all that may get it to the 70s mpg.
- acdha 6y ago
  The VW Jetta TDI I bought in 1999 got over 50mpg on the highway (mid-40s city) and had a 14.5 gallon tank. The longest I ever got it was ~700 miles at an average of 52mpg.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  My 2007 Chevy Avalanche. And that's actual freeway miles in a car that actually exists. I have no doubt, musk will get the new roadster out there. But I have no reason to believe he isn't overpromising on the mileage.
Diederich 6y ago
More specifically, it's range over time. We made a recent long trip with our Tesla Model S, which has about a 325 mile max range. There were plenty of superchargers, but it takes time. You also end up stopping a lot more than once every 300 miles, because the rate of charge up to 90% is very fast, but the last 10% is very slow. We usually ran down to between 50 and 100 miles of range, and charged it up to about 290-300 miles, which took between 15 and 20 minutes. It's not terrible, but compared to a gas engine, it's a good bit slower over time. On the upside, it forces you to have a more 'easy going' drive.
- ravedave5 6y ago
  The ICE vs Electric cannonball run records show this very clearly.
- hinkley 6y ago
  Speaking as a child subjected to routine 2 hour road trips each way (often coming back the next day, once in a while the same day) and occasionally much longer road trips: Stop the damned car and let your family out for fuck's sake. Just because you can drive >4 hours nonstop doesn't mean you should drive 4 hours nonstop (I did on a solo road trip earlier this year. I forgot a piece of equipment and didn't realize until I was 5 miles out of town, so I had to 'make up time'. It was still a mistake.) Complaining that you can't drive 6 hours nonstop is some form of insanity that I am not qualified to diagnose.
  - justrudd 6y ago
    If I'm traveling with someone, I'll stop every 2/3 hours. But if I'm by myself (and was still in my 20s)? I'm going to optimize every second (Gatorade bottles FTW). No reason other than to say I did...
    - hinkley 6y ago
      Done that plenty myself, but eventually I figured out that being sedentary that long starts to affect my alertness. Getting out of the car and getting the blood pumping makes me much more alert for the next hour or two. At first I didn't want to think about that meant about how alert I wasn't for the previous hour. Now it's kind of hard to ignore.