10 ms·

Shrug. Who even cares any more. The U.K. can abandon everything they want, and any business or person with a brain or eyes to see will abandon them. I did. I’m

Shrug. Who even cares any more. The U.K. can abandon everything they want, and any business or person with a brain or eyes to see will abandon them. I did. I’m far from alone. What’s the U.K. going to do when there’s nothing left but idiots and seagulls? This also seems like a great opportunity to find any interesting U.K. patents you can, and steal them. What are they going to do, write a letter? They’re leaving all mutual enforcement agreements, too.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
We will end up back in or closely aligned. The economic arguments are overwhelming. It's only a matter of time.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Once the conservatives are out, and a sufficient period in the wilderness has been completed, we could return to a Norway position. However, that depends a lot on what happens in the intervening decade to failing intra-Europe states such as Hungary and Poland.
- black_puppydog 6y ago
  Good luck with the negotiations. I guess Albania and North Macedonia have a always had lot more goodwill on the EU side, ever since the idea of them joining the EU was floated, than the UK will ever have again.
  - te_chris 6y ago
    Nah, they'll want the budget contributions back. Also, as much as I think Brexit is a complete waste, it doesn't have to be a disaster either - although this govt. seems hellbent on making it one. By the time the UK comes to reconsider joining or similar, things will have moved.
    - normalnorm 6y ago
      > Nah, they'll want the budget contributions back. Also: "The German car industry will demand it", "The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU", etc. All of this has been falsified in the last four years. The integrity of the single market and of the European project is turning out to be much more valuable to EU member states than the highly rebated UK contributions.
      - te_chris 6y ago
        As I said, I'm on the side against brexit, but what you're saying is not true. The EU is struggling massively with this current budget round and the loss of the UK contribution seems to legitimately be causing problems. The shit about BMW's and Prosecco was just nationalist bollocks, but that doesn't mean that the loss of the UK budget contribution isn't real. Likely end outcome is EU budget struggles a bit for a few years, then UK rejoins as an associate or whatever new category they come up with.
        trekrich 6y ago
        The EU project needs to come to an end, and the sooner the better. Its an outdated dictatorship that needs to go.
        normalnorm 6y ago
        The European Council is made of the democratically elected Heads of State of each Member State. The European Council nominates the president of the European Comission, which again has one member per Member State. The European Parliament, which is composed of MEPs directly elected by the citizens of each member state, must ratify all nominations. The directly elected European Parliament has veto power on European Comission decisions, and so has every Member State. A state can only join the EU by virtue of a democratic decision according to the constitution of the Member State itself, and there are strong requirements on prospective Member States to be themselves proper democracies with separation of powers in order to be allowed to join. Granted, these requirements have been slightly overlooked when it came to the UK: the House of Lords is undemocratic, one could say outdated, and would almost certainly not be tolerated in any other candidate state. So, the EU might be complex, but in what sense exactly is it undemocratic?
  - oblio 6y ago
    It doesn't work like that. EU state populations overwhelmingly like rich countries over poor ones. Including poor countries is a geostrategic decision with little low-level support from people. Switzerland, Norway, Iceland would be welcome with open arms, they just don't want to join. The baggage caused by the UK will dissipate in 5-10 years or so and at the end of the day, the UK is comparatively rich by EU standards.
    - normalnorm 6y ago
      > The baggage caused by the UK will dissipate in 5-10 years or so This is quite optimistic. I'm not sure if you live in the EU, but the UK severely tainted its image and destroyed all good-will with most powerful EU member states. In less than 5 years, it went from being a highly respected member and culture, with a reputation for pragmatism and seriousness, to a sad joke and an object of scorn with a bad after-taste of good old-fashioned xenophobia. More objectively: if you study the history of the EU, you will see that this "baggage" is quite old. For quite some time in the 70s vetoed UK's accession (to the then EEC), precisely because it feared that the UK was only interested in economic benefits and would sabotage any other aspect of the European project. That is more or less what happened when the UK eventually joined, and the EU had to build around the UK (Schengen, Euro, etc.). It is true that the EU likes rich countries, but it is also true that things are far from being as simple as you describe. Interesting detail: you mention Switzerland, Norway and Iceland. They are members of EFTA. EFTA was created by the UK during the time that they were not able to join the EEC. After Brexit was decided, the UK tried to rejoin EFTA, and they were refused. So being rich is not enough once you become sufficiently toxic. Due to the situation after WWII, the UK was given special treatment. It was allowed to opt-out of most things, and it was given extraordinary rebates for its contributions to the EU budget. Should the UK wish to rejoin, it would have to accept Schengen, the Euro, no more rebates and the "ever closer union" political commitment spelled out in the treaties. I find it very hard to believe that the UK would accept such things in our lifetimes, and I find it very hard to believe that the EU would be willing to put up with the current circus that is UK politics and media in the forseable future. The UK government is now talking about not honoring the Withdrawal Agreement if there is no Free Trade Deal. Well, this means a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. This means the return of violence to that region. Even if the UK honors the WA, it is quite likely that the situation will degrade to a point that this border comes back. That was the crux of the negotiations for the last 4 years between the EU and the UK, that everyone is now forgetting about. There are also other issues, like Gibraltar. I am afraid that heavier baggage will necessarily accumulate before it can even start to dissipate.
- blibble 6y ago
  it was on a knife edge with the rebate and without having to take the euro and schengen now that the opt-outs are gone it'll never happen rejoin died on 31st Jan 2020
  - rwmj 6y ago
    I'm not so sure. If I wanted N. Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England to rejoin the EU (separately and in that order) then I'd be doing pretty much what the government is doing right now.
    - blibble 6y ago
      NI, Scotland and Wales leaving would make England one of the richest countries in Europe (by capita), which would vastly increase its EU budget contributions this makes Leave's argument better, not worse
      - rwmj 6y ago
        Only if we continue to be wealthy, which is not so certain right now.
        blibble 6y ago
        now you're really stretching it
        rwmj 6y ago
        We're already 20-30% worse off because of the fall in currency and perhaps a hundred billion £ worse off because of Brexit, and we haven't begun the full amputation of our trading relations yet. We'll see anyway. Chin up, hope for the best and all that!
        blibble 6y ago
        the worst predictions are 6.7% lost GDP growth over 15 years (note: GDP growth, not actual GDP) or around 0.35% a year, which isn't going to make the UK into a poor nation (and if Scotland, NI and Wales left it then England's would skyrocket) meanwhile, in reality: the virus has knocked 20% off actual GDP in 4 months
fwsgonzo 6y ago
That's a good point. Patents tend to be applied in several geographical areas though (although I'm no expert), but I suppose there's always a possibility that there are patents that only apply in the UK now.
lloydatkinson 6y ago
As an English person, I care a great deal. I voted to remain.
- madaxe_again 6y ago
  Likewise, but that cause is lost. They’ll be leaving the UN Security Council in the next few years most likely, in the name of control and sovereignty. I’d get out while you can.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    I can't see the UK voluntarily leaving the UN Security Council and as we usually act as the sidekick of the US I can't imagine they'd want the UK to leave either.
    - corford 6y ago
      On the other hand, I can see the other more powerful Security Council countries leaving and setting up something else (to which the UK, now a rather middling power, will not be invited).
      - gadders 6y ago
        6th largest country by GDP out of 195 is a strange definition of "middling".
        manquer 6y ago
        India is 5th largest GDP and also a nuclear power, it is not a permanent member and does not have veto power on the SC. Germany/Japan are higher than both India and U.K. and still not part of council for obvious historical reasons. GDP and nuclear arsenal are just two aspects to power, lot more to it than just that. When France and UK became part initial members the SC. They were still colonial powers controlling a lot of the world, and won the war, they are no longer have that kind of strength or influence. If a new council were created in the somewhat near future it would be because power dynamics have shifted far enough that the current council is no longer useful, from the current members UK and France are most likely to ones for that shift and not enjoy similar rights. New powers at the table could be EU as a whole, India, Brazil perhaps Japan and Germany etc.
Normal_gaussian 6y ago
The UK withdrew from a not yet complete project to unify existing patent systems. They are still party to the non-eu body of the EPO as explained here : https://www.epo.org/law-practice/legal-texts/official-journal/information-epo/archive/20200129.html https://www.epo.org/law-practice/legal-texts/official-journa...
- madaxe_again 6y ago
  Right, but they’ll inevitably leave the EPO too - I’d say this was the shot across the bows. It’s easy to predict - just consider what the worst, most self-destructive course of action available is, and voila, you know what the British government will do next.
  - blibble 6y ago
    > Right, but they’ll inevitably leave the EPO too based on what? the government is pulling out of anything where the ECJ has jurisdiction, which you might not agree with, but is perfectly consistent with leaving the EU's institutional control the EPO is not under the control of the ECJ
    - madaxe_again 6y ago
      They left euratom, which has nothing to do with either the ECJ or EU. There’s precedent.
      - blibble 6y ago
        > They left euratom, which has nothing to do with either the ECJ or EU. There’s precedent. afraid not: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-40571853 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-4057... > The UK joined Euratom when it joined the EEC in 1973. It is a separate legal entity from the EU, but is tied up with its laws and institutions, and subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ). you may want to revisit essentially everything you've posted here, because most of it is just flat out wrong
peteretep 6y ago
> any business or person with a brain or eyes to see will abandon them. I did. I’m far from alone. What’s the U.K. going to do when there’s nothing left but idiots and seagulls? Right! Apart from being the 6th largest economy, a nuclear power, a permanent member of the security council, a member of FVEY, the home of two of the best universities in the world, home to London, being a cultural powerhouse for several centuries, home to one of the most established and trusted legal systems in the world, and printer of the pound sterling, the UK is basically completely irrelevant now. ... Brexit is a shit-show and probably a bad idea, but perhaps let’s keep the hyperbole to a minimum, eh?
- arethuza 6y ago
  We are a bit of a second-rate nuclear power though - we are completely dependent on the US for delivery systems (Trident missiles) and, apparently, for the design of warheads. If the US decided it didn't want the UK to be a nuclear power then I don't think we'd be able to maintain the capability for very long.
  - peteretep 6y ago
    Britain was the third nuclear power, can’t imagine they just threw the plans away... Also the French are managing to maintain theirs independently just fine.
    - arethuza 6y ago
      I don't think a 1960's weapon design (if we ever really had them - there is some debate as to whether the UK conned the US into giving us proper multi-stage weapon designs) is going be that useful on a Trident missile.
- ck425 6y ago
  > two of the best universities in the world There's more than just two! Admittedly only Oxbridge are consistently top 10 but there are a disproportionate number of other UK unis in the top 200.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago

We will end up back in or closely aligned. The economic arguments are overwhelming. It's only a matter of time.

pjc50 6y ago
Once the conservatives are out, and a sufficient period in the wilderness has been completed, we could return to a Norway position. However, that depends a lot on what happens in the intervening decade to failing intra-Europe states such as Hungary and Poland.
black_puppydog 6y ago
Good luck with the negotiations. I guess Albania and North Macedonia have a always had lot more goodwill on the EU side, ever since the idea of them joining the EU was floated, than the UK will ever have again.
- te_chris 6y ago
  Nah, they'll want the budget contributions back. Also, as much as I think Brexit is a complete waste, it doesn't have to be a disaster either - although this govt. seems hellbent on making it one. By the time the UK comes to reconsider joining or similar, things will have moved.
  - normalnorm 6y ago
    > Nah, they'll want the budget contributions back. Also: "The German car industry will demand it", "The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU", etc. All of this has been falsified in the last four years. The integrity of the single market and of the European project is turning out to be much more valuable to EU member states than the highly rebated UK contributions.
    - te_chris 6y ago
      As I said, I'm on the side against brexit, but what you're saying is not true. The EU is struggling massively with this current budget round and the loss of the UK contribution seems to legitimately be causing problems. The shit about BMW's and Prosecco was just nationalist bollocks, but that doesn't mean that the loss of the UK budget contribution isn't real. Likely end outcome is EU budget struggles a bit for a few years, then UK rejoins as an associate or whatever new category they come up with.
      - trekrich 6y ago
        The EU project needs to come to an end, and the sooner the better. Its an outdated dictatorship that needs to go.
        normalnorm 6y ago
        The European Council is made of the democratically elected Heads of State of each Member State. The European Council nominates the president of the European Comission, which again has one member per Member State. The European Parliament, which is composed of MEPs directly elected by the citizens of each member state, must ratify all nominations. The directly elected European Parliament has veto power on European Comission decisions, and so has every Member State. A state can only join the EU by virtue of a democratic decision according to the constitution of the Member State itself, and there are strong requirements on prospective Member States to be themselves proper democracies with separation of powers in order to be allowed to join. Granted, these requirements have been slightly overlooked when it came to the UK: the House of Lords is undemocratic, one could say outdated, and would almost certainly not be tolerated in any other candidate state. So, the EU might be complex, but in what sense exactly is it undemocratic?
- oblio 6y ago
  It doesn't work like that. EU state populations overwhelmingly like rich countries over poor ones. Including poor countries is a geostrategic decision with little low-level support from people. Switzerland, Norway, Iceland would be welcome with open arms, they just don't want to join. The baggage caused by the UK will dissipate in 5-10 years or so and at the end of the day, the UK is comparatively rich by EU standards.
  - normalnorm 6y ago
    > The baggage caused by the UK will dissipate in 5-10 years or so This is quite optimistic. I'm not sure if you live in the EU, but the UK severely tainted its image and destroyed all good-will with most powerful EU member states. In less than 5 years, it went from being a highly respected member and culture, with a reputation for pragmatism and seriousness, to a sad joke and an object of scorn with a bad after-taste of good old-fashioned xenophobia. More objectively: if you study the history of the EU, you will see that this "baggage" is quite old. For quite some time in the 70s vetoed UK's accession (to the then EEC), precisely because it feared that the UK was only interested in economic benefits and would sabotage any other aspect of the European project. That is more or less what happened when the UK eventually joined, and the EU had to build around the UK (Schengen, Euro, etc.). It is true that the EU likes rich countries, but it is also true that things are far from being as simple as you describe. Interesting detail: you mention Switzerland, Norway and Iceland. They are members of EFTA. EFTA was created by the UK during the time that they were not able to join the EEC. After Brexit was decided, the UK tried to rejoin EFTA, and they were refused. So being rich is not enough once you become sufficiently toxic. Due to the situation after WWII, the UK was given special treatment. It was allowed to opt-out of most things, and it was given extraordinary rebates for its contributions to the EU budget. Should the UK wish to rejoin, it would have to accept Schengen, the Euro, no more rebates and the "ever closer union" political commitment spelled out in the treaties. I find it very hard to believe that the UK would accept such things in our lifetimes, and I find it very hard to believe that the EU would be willing to put up with the current circus that is UK politics and media in the forseable future. The UK government is now talking about not honoring the Withdrawal Agreement if there is no Free Trade Deal. Well, this means a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. This means the return of violence to that region. Even if the UK honors the WA, it is quite likely that the situation will degrade to a point that this border comes back. That was the crux of the negotiations for the last 4 years between the EU and the UK, that everyone is now forgetting about. There are also other issues, like Gibraltar. I am afraid that heavier baggage will necessarily accumulate before it can even start to dissipate.
blibble 6y ago
it was on a knife edge with the rebate and without having to take the euro and schengen now that the opt-outs are gone it'll never happen rejoin died on 31st Jan 2020
- rwmj 6y ago
  I'm not so sure. If I wanted N. Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England to rejoin the EU (separately and in that order) then I'd be doing pretty much what the government is doing right now.
  - blibble 6y ago
    NI, Scotland and Wales leaving would make England one of the richest countries in Europe (by capita), which would vastly increase its EU budget contributions this makes Leave's argument better, not worse
    - rwmj 6y ago
      Only if we continue to be wealthy, which is not so certain right now.
      - blibble 6y ago
        now you're really stretching it
        rwmj 6y ago
        We're already 20-30% worse off because of the fall in currency and perhaps a hundred billion £ worse off because of Brexit, and we haven't begun the full amputation of our trading relations yet. We'll see anyway. Chin up, hope for the best and all that!
        blibble 6y ago
        the worst predictions are 6.7% lost GDP growth over 15 years (note: GDP growth, not actual GDP) or around 0.35% a year, which isn't going to make the UK into a poor nation (and if Scotland, NI and Wales left it then England's would skyrocket) meanwhile, in reality: the virus has knocked 20% off actual GDP in 4 months

fwsgonzo 6y ago

That's a good point. Patents tend to be applied in several geographical areas though (although I'm no expert), but I suppose there's always a possibility that there are patents that only apply in the UK now.

lloydatkinson 6y ago

As an English person, I care a great deal. I voted to remain.

madaxe_again 6y ago
Likewise, but that cause is lost. They’ll be leaving the UN Security Council in the next few years most likely, in the name of control and sovereignty. I’d get out while you can.
- arethuza 6y ago
  I can't see the UK voluntarily leaving the UN Security Council and as we usually act as the sidekick of the US I can't imagine they'd want the UK to leave either.
  - corford 6y ago
    On the other hand, I can see the other more powerful Security Council countries leaving and setting up something else (to which the UK, now a rather middling power, will not be invited).
    - gadders 6y ago
      6th largest country by GDP out of 195 is a strange definition of "middling".
      - manquer 6y ago
        India is 5th largest GDP and also a nuclear power, it is not a permanent member and does not have veto power on the SC. Germany/Japan are higher than both India and U.K. and still not part of council for obvious historical reasons. GDP and nuclear arsenal are just two aspects to power, lot more to it than just that. When France and UK became part initial members the SC. They were still colonial powers controlling a lot of the world, and won the war, they are no longer have that kind of strength or influence. If a new council were created in the somewhat near future it would be because power dynamics have shifted far enough that the current council is no longer useful, from the current members UK and France are most likely to ones for that shift and not enjoy similar rights. New powers at the table could be EU as a whole, India, Brazil perhaps Japan and Germany etc.

Normal_gaussian 6y ago

The UK withdrew from a not yet complete project to unify existing patent systems. They are still party to the non-eu body of the EPO as explained here : https://www.epo.org/law-practice/legal-texts/official-journal/information-epo/archive/20200129.html https://www.epo.org/law-practice/legal-texts/official-journa...

madaxe_again 6y ago
Right, but they’ll inevitably leave the EPO too - I’d say this was the shot across the bows. It’s easy to predict - just consider what the worst, most self-destructive course of action available is, and voila, you know what the British government will do next.
- blibble 6y ago
  > Right, but they’ll inevitably leave the EPO too based on what? the government is pulling out of anything where the ECJ has jurisdiction, which you might not agree with, but is perfectly consistent with leaving the EU's institutional control the EPO is not under the control of the ECJ
  - madaxe_again 6y ago
    They left euratom, which has nothing to do with either the ECJ or EU. There’s precedent.
    - blibble 6y ago
      > They left euratom, which has nothing to do with either the ECJ or EU. There’s precedent. afraid not: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-40571853 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-4057... > The UK joined Euratom when it joined the EEC in 1973. It is a separate legal entity from the EU, but is tied up with its laws and institutions, and subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice (ECJ). you may want to revisit essentially everything you've posted here, because most of it is just flat out wrong

peteretep 6y ago

> any business or person with a brain or eyes to see will abandon them. I did. I’m far from alone. What’s the U.K. going to do when there’s nothing left but idiots and seagulls? Right! Apart from being the 6th largest economy, a nuclear power, a permanent member of the security council, a member of FVEY, the home of two of the best universities in the world, home to London, being a cultural powerhouse for several centuries, home to one of the most established and trusted legal systems in the world, and printer of the pound sterling, the UK is basically completely irrelevant now. ... Brexit is a shit-show and probably a bad idea, but perhaps let’s keep the hyperbole to a minimum, eh?

arethuza 6y ago
We are a bit of a second-rate nuclear power though - we are completely dependent on the US for delivery systems (Trident missiles) and, apparently, for the design of warheads. If the US decided it didn't want the UK to be a nuclear power then I don't think we'd be able to maintain the capability for very long.
- peteretep 6y ago
  Britain was the third nuclear power, can’t imagine they just threw the plans away... Also the French are managing to maintain theirs independently just fine.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    I don't think a 1960's weapon design (if we ever really had them - there is some debate as to whether the UK conned the US into giving us proper multi-stage weapon designs) is going be that useful on a Trident missile.
ck425 6y ago
> two of the best universities in the world There's more than just two! Admittedly only Oxbridge are consistently top 10 but there are a disproportionate number of other UK unis in the top 200.