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docs.requarks.io, which is said to be using Wiki.js, straight up doesn't load without Javascript, and even with Javascript enabled it's a multi-page application

by Hamcha 6y ago

docs.requarks.io, which is said to be using Wiki.js, straight up doesn't load without Javascript, and even with Javascript enabled it's a multi-page application that just feels slower browsing page to page than your average 10-year-old mediawiki install (probably also heavier on the backend). Who exactly is asking for slower software?

midasz 6y ago
> Wiki.js, straight up doesn't load without Javascript I'm sorry but it's right there in the name
- Hamcha 6y ago
  Because it uses Node.js in the backend. MediaWiki is written in PHP, but it does not require you to have PHP running in the client to work. As much as we could argue about whether no-js support really matters or not in 2020, the fact remains that having to having to load Vue.js and have it parse and render the frontend on the client is not really "lightweight", especially when the most popular competing products pre-render on the backend. It wouldn't honestly be that much of an issue if it was a SPA (and it must do SPA-ish things already if it uses Apollo) so you just load the frontend once and it'd load other pages asynchronously, but nope. Every link is a full page reload, with Vue having to re-do everything every time. It just reeks of modern tech used in an old fashioned way, which ends up with the performance penalties from both. Go browse any other wiki, see how much faster and smoother the experience is.
  - merb 6y ago
    well sometimes not being a spa and using vuejs/"any spa tech" might be a good idea. if it would be scoped correctly. sometimes you need MORE interaction on a specific page. unfortunatly the whole wiki feels sluggish as you already said, because they make so much dumb stuff. I would say using js without having a no-js version is ok, if done correctly.
mainframed 6y ago
Was excited about seeing an open alternative to Gitbook. But yes, not loading without Javascript is a showstopper.
newsbinator 6y ago
It also requires a browser that supports HTML for some reason, instead of being an API you communicate with through CURL POST requests.
- TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
  I was hoping for a tty interface over telnet with plain ascii output.
  - newsbinator 6y ago
    Other technologies are slow and insecure, and I have disabled them on my system. Too much memory usage. Please ensure that if you mention your service or system on HN it works over telnet and outputs plain ascii.
Aengeuad 6y ago
I was excited for a moment when wiki.js.org rendered properly without Javascript but similarly disappointed when docs.requarks.io only showed a fairly typical white page. Also noticed that it feels slow page to page, thinking that it might be an issue with my Firefox configuration I opened the page on a fresh profile and it's still slow, but if you open it in Chrome page to page becomes almost instant and is more comparable to MediaWiki. So maybe this particular performance issue on FF can be resolved but it does seem like a worse end user experience when compared to MediaWiki.
- broabprobe 6y ago
  yeah I've noticed in Firefox Wiki.js appears to blank in between each page (doesn't happen for me in other browsers). This is very disruptive and has prevented me from further interest in the platform, sadly.
areille 6y ago
> Running on the blazing fast Node.js engine Is Node.js that blazing-fast ?
- dspillett 6y ago
  It certainly can be, depending on what you compare it against and how you measure. It is based on V8 which in many (caveat: far from all) benchmarks comes out as the fastest JS engine, so by that definition in the realm of JS powered components it is pretty quick. node.js solutions will often perform better than common configurations of other options too - Apache+PHP to pick one example out of the air. Then again, depending on the code other configurations of PHP might outperform Node.
- freedomben 6y ago
  Surprisingly yes. It has billions of dollars or optimizations and research in it over the years and can really fly. Of course you can write slow node code just like you can in any language, but a single well-written node instance can handle a lot of traffic.
  - sverhagen 6y ago
    Billions of dollars? I have no beef with Node, but that seems like a lot. Could you elaborate?

by Hamcha 6y ago

midasz 6y ago

> Wiki.js, straight up doesn't load without Javascript I'm sorry but it's right there in the name

Hamcha 6y ago
Because it uses Node.js in the backend. MediaWiki is written in PHP, but it does not require you to have PHP running in the client to work. As much as we could argue about whether no-js support really matters or not in 2020, the fact remains that having to having to load Vue.js and have it parse and render the frontend on the client is not really "lightweight", especially when the most popular competing products pre-render on the backend. It wouldn't honestly be that much of an issue if it was a SPA (and it must do SPA-ish things already if it uses Apollo) so you just load the frontend once and it'd load other pages asynchronously, but nope. Every link is a full page reload, with Vue having to re-do everything every time. It just reeks of modern tech used in an old fashioned way, which ends up with the performance penalties from both. Go browse any other wiki, see how much faster and smoother the experience is.
- merb 6y ago
  well sometimes not being a spa and using vuejs/"any spa tech" might be a good idea. if it would be scoped correctly. sometimes you need MORE interaction on a specific page. unfortunatly the whole wiki feels sluggish as you already said, because they make so much dumb stuff. I would say using js without having a no-js version is ok, if done correctly.

mainframed 6y ago

Was excited about seeing an open alternative to Gitbook. But yes, not loading without Javascript is a showstopper.

newsbinator 6y ago

It also requires a browser that supports HTML for some reason, instead of being an API you communicate with through CURL POST requests.

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
I was hoping for a tty interface over telnet with plain ascii output.
- newsbinator 6y ago
  Other technologies are slow and insecure, and I have disabled them on my system. Too much memory usage. Please ensure that if you mention your service or system on HN it works over telnet and outputs plain ascii.

Aengeuad 6y ago

I was excited for a moment when wiki.js.org rendered properly without Javascript but similarly disappointed when docs.requarks.io only showed a fairly typical white page. Also noticed that it feels slow page to page, thinking that it might be an issue with my Firefox configuration I opened the page on a fresh profile and it's still slow, but if you open it in Chrome page to page becomes almost instant and is more comparable to MediaWiki. So maybe this particular performance issue on FF can be resolved but it does seem like a worse end user experience when compared to MediaWiki.

broabprobe 6y ago
yeah I've noticed in Firefox Wiki.js appears to blank in between each page (doesn't happen for me in other browsers). This is very disruptive and has prevented me from further interest in the platform, sadly.

areille 6y ago

> Running on the blazing fast Node.js engine Is Node.js that blazing-fast ?

dspillett 6y ago
It certainly can be, depending on what you compare it against and how you measure. It is based on V8 which in many (caveat: far from all) benchmarks comes out as the fastest JS engine, so by that definition in the realm of JS powered components it is pretty quick. node.js solutions will often perform better than common configurations of other options too - Apache+PHP to pick one example out of the air. Then again, depending on the code other configurations of PHP might outperform Node.
freedomben 6y ago
Surprisingly yes. It has billions of dollars or optimizations and research in it over the years and can really fly. Of course you can write slow node code just like you can in any language, but a single well-written node instance can handle a lot of traffic.
- sverhagen 6y ago
  Billions of dollars? I have no beef with Node, but that seems like a lot. Could you elaborate?