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Thank you for sharing your experience. Cloudflare switched to using hCaptcha a couple months ago, I think and I only just noticed that they do not offer an aud

by 1f60c 6y ago

Thank you for sharing your experience. Cloudflare switched to using hCaptcha a couple months ago, I think and I only just noticed that they do not offer an audio-based captcha. However, hCaptcha integrates with Privacy Pass[0], and you can top up your tokens by solving a captcha at [1] and [2]. What you could do (and I realize this is far from ideal), is getting a sighted friend to solve a couple of captchas so you have enough tokens to last you a couple months. [0]: https://privacypass.github.io/ https://privacypass.github.io/ [1]: https://captcha.website/ https://captcha.website/ [2]: https://www.hcaptcha.com/privacy-pass https://www.hcaptcha.com/privacy-pass

waheoo 6y ago
This is such an out of touch dev response. The problem is hcaptcha, the solution is stop using hcaptcha. Not placate and evade with work arounds you wouldn't even suggest to non blind people. Also this ask a friend solution is like telling someone in a wheelchair to ask a friend to help them up those steps instead of just installing a ramp. You don't get to take over half the internet and just ignore social responsibility.
- BTinfinity 6y ago
  Solutions can’t be implemented instantly; a work around is needed until that ramp is installed. As much as the lack of audio solution sucks, you can’t expect half the internet to just give up on a piece of technology overnight
  - waheoo 6y ago
    Why not?
    - Thorrez 6y ago
      When you move fast you tend to break things. When half the internet relies on you you want to avoid outages.
      - waheoo 6y ago
        They seem to move pretty fast when things are broken for non blind people. Are you saying it's ok to discriminate? I know there are varying degrees at play here, all I'm trying to do is point out your priorities are fucked. CloudFlare is working on something right now, why not this?
        Thorrez 6y ago
        When things are already completely broken then it's acceptable to move fast because things are already completely broken. When things are only slightly broken you need to be careful you don't expand the breakage. Are you sure CloudFlare isn't working on this right now? Captchas are very hard (if not impossible) to do right, and audio captchas are no exception. Check out http://uncaptcha.cs.umd.edu/ http://uncaptcha.cs.umd.edu/ As far as I know CloudFlare might have a large team that's been working on this for a while but has been unable to create something solvable by a human but unsolvable by a bot.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - aeturnum 6y ago
    > you can’t expect half the internet to just give up on a piece of technology overnight People call for this all the time when a major security vulnerability is discovered. The difference is in how the community views it. Cloudflare should weigh harm of blocking access to the Deaf community warrant the harm of removing a captcha that doesn't support them. They should have done it when they chose a captcha that doesn't support the Deaf community. As technology comes to mediate every avenue of life, we need to recognize that technology only has value in its positive effects on people's lives. A security vulnerability is bad because owners may lose control, property may be lost, crimes may be committed. Usability vulnerabilities can deny services essential to their users. You're totally correct that there is no magic solution, but to say that we know which imperfect solution is preferable is incorrect.
  - zorpner 6y ago
    No. The ramp needs to be built when the thing is built. Accessibility is not an afterthought.
    - mynameisvlad 6y ago
      I mean, yes, in an ideal world that's true. Yet, here we are. It's not possible for a dev to go back in time to before hcaptcha was created or when CF decided to switch to them to create said ramp, so until it's built, workarounds are the only real thing a community member can offer someone in the short term.
      - binsh 6y ago
        It's not like trying to find the Fountain of Youth or something. It's a company with billions of dollars making it impossible for certain people with disabilities to access the Internet. Let's not pretend that it just has to be this way. A world where half the Internet can't be broken by one company should be the baseline.
        mynameisvlad 6y ago
        Nobody is saying it has to be this way. As I said, in an ideal world, accessibility happens when development happens and is not an afterthought. But we don't live in an ideal world, and it's clear here that it wasn't thought out when they did the switch, or other forces caused the switch to happen without this piece in place. So, with that in mind, knowing where we currently are, not where we'd like to be in an ideal world, what, exactly, do you want to be done right now by members of the community? It's not like we can all go in and change the Cloudflare code to stop using hCaptcha. The most we can all do is give alternatives and workarounds while pushing on Cloudflare and hCaptcha to support this scenario. Which is all being done in this thread already.
  - lolinder 6y ago
    We can expect developers to think about accessibility during development. You would never see a building constructed today without a ramp or with insufficient handicapped parking. I realize that you can't change culture overnight either, but the fact is that technology like this, designed for use in large applications used by a huge portion of the population of the world, shouldn't need to be retrofitted to be accessible. It should have been baked in.
- stanislavb 6y ago
  Yeah, and then... a few days later... The problem is reCaptcha, just stop using reCaptcha as Google is tracking all of us. My personal opinion is that it's better to use hCaptcha. I wasn't aware that they don't support audio. I think a better approach would be requesting hCaptcha to implement the missing bit. Giving less control to Google is better. Given the widespread tracking they have access to right now.
- 1f60c 6y ago
  > Also this ask a friend solution is like telling someone in a wheelchair to ask a friend to help them up those steps instead of just installing a ramp. I agree, and I could’ve been clearer. The Privacy Pass workaround shouldn’t be necessary and we should demand Cloudflare do better. (To avoid any doubt: I’m not affiliated with Cloudflare in any way, other than that I’m a customer on their free plan.)
- dahfizz 6y ago
  I think you need to take a deep breathe. You're responding to a rando on the internet, not the CTO of Cloudflare. Your parent is just trying to offer help to OP, and you're mad because you assume he is a Cloudflare dev? Even if he was, it's not like he has unilateral control over product decisions.
- DanBC 6y ago
  > and just ignore social responsibility. ...and they're ignoring the law in many place.
- loco5niner 6y ago
  Yes, there are limitations, and I'm sure hcaptcha will get there, but until then, a helpful person on the internet gave a helpful workaround.
technofiend 6y ago
Perhaps it's only a matter of time before volunteers or well meaning organization [1] add captcha solving to bemyeyes-style solutions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightHouse_for_the_Blind_and_Visually_Impaired https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightHouse_for_the_Blind_and_V...
- miki123211 6y ago
  There's AIRA and it can do it, if you don't care that another person will see what site you're trying to access and if you're willing to go through a super complicated techy procedure to get a free american phone number, which not everyone knows about. Also, not everyone speaks english.
anticensor 6y ago
There are a couple of bugs[0][1] in Privacy Pass that causes spending tokens during collecting, thereby preventing collecting tokens. [0]: https://github.com/privacypass/challenge-bypass-extension/issues/135 https://github.com/privacypass/challenge-bypass-extension/is... [1]: https://github.com/privacypass/challenge-bypass-extension/issues/177 https://github.com/privacypass/challenge-bypass-extension/is...
alexnewman 6y ago
We also have a special accessibility mode https://www.hcaptcha.com/accessibility https://www.hcaptcha.com/accessibility

by 1f60c 6y ago

waheoo 6y ago

This is such an out of touch dev response. The problem is hcaptcha, the solution is stop using hcaptcha. Not placate and evade with work arounds you wouldn't even suggest to non blind people. Also this ask a friend solution is like telling someone in a wheelchair to ask a friend to help them up those steps instead of just installing a ramp. You don't get to take over half the internet and just ignore social responsibility.

BTinfinity 6y ago
Solutions can’t be implemented instantly; a work around is needed until that ramp is installed. As much as the lack of audio solution sucks, you can’t expect half the internet to just give up on a piece of technology overnight
- waheoo 6y ago
  Why not?
  - Thorrez 6y ago
    When you move fast you tend to break things. When half the internet relies on you you want to avoid outages.
    - waheoo 6y ago
      They seem to move pretty fast when things are broken for non blind people. Are you saying it's ok to discriminate? I know there are varying degrees at play here, all I'm trying to do is point out your priorities are fucked. CloudFlare is working on something right now, why not this?
      - Thorrez 6y ago
        When things are already completely broken then it's acceptable to move fast because things are already completely broken. When things are only slightly broken you need to be careful you don't expand the breakage. Are you sure CloudFlare isn't working on this right now? Captchas are very hard (if not impossible) to do right, and audio captchas are no exception. Check out http://uncaptcha.cs.umd.edu/ http://uncaptcha.cs.umd.edu/ As far as I know CloudFlare might have a large team that's been working on this for a while but has been unable to create something solvable by a human but unsolvable by a bot.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- aeturnum 6y ago
  > you can’t expect half the internet to just give up on a piece of technology overnight People call for this all the time when a major security vulnerability is discovered. The difference is in how the community views it. Cloudflare should weigh harm of blocking access to the Deaf community warrant the harm of removing a captcha that doesn't support them. They should have done it when they chose a captcha that doesn't support the Deaf community. As technology comes to mediate every avenue of life, we need to recognize that technology only has value in its positive effects on people's lives. A security vulnerability is bad because owners may lose control, property may be lost, crimes may be committed. Usability vulnerabilities can deny services essential to their users. You're totally correct that there is no magic solution, but to say that we know which imperfect solution is preferable is incorrect.
- zorpner 6y ago
  No. The ramp needs to be built when the thing is built. Accessibility is not an afterthought.
  - mynameisvlad 6y ago
    I mean, yes, in an ideal world that's true. Yet, here we are. It's not possible for a dev to go back in time to before hcaptcha was created or when CF decided to switch to them to create said ramp, so until it's built, workarounds are the only real thing a community member can offer someone in the short term.
    - binsh 6y ago
      It's not like trying to find the Fountain of Youth or something. It's a company with billions of dollars making it impossible for certain people with disabilities to access the Internet. Let's not pretend that it just has to be this way. A world where half the Internet can't be broken by one company should be the baseline.
      - mynameisvlad 6y ago
        Nobody is saying it has to be this way. As I said, in an ideal world, accessibility happens when development happens and is not an afterthought. But we don't live in an ideal world, and it's clear here that it wasn't thought out when they did the switch, or other forces caused the switch to happen without this piece in place. So, with that in mind, knowing where we currently are, not where we'd like to be in an ideal world, what, exactly, do you want to be done right now by members of the community? It's not like we can all go in and change the Cloudflare code to stop using hCaptcha. The most we can all do is give alternatives and workarounds while pushing on Cloudflare and hCaptcha to support this scenario. Which is all being done in this thread already.
- lolinder 6y ago
  We can expect developers to think about accessibility during development. You would never see a building constructed today without a ramp or with insufficient handicapped parking. I realize that you can't change culture overnight either, but the fact is that technology like this, designed for use in large applications used by a huge portion of the population of the world, shouldn't need to be retrofitted to be accessible. It should have been baked in.
stanislavb 6y ago
Yeah, and then... a few days later... The problem is reCaptcha, just stop using reCaptcha as Google is tracking all of us. My personal opinion is that it's better to use hCaptcha. I wasn't aware that they don't support audio. I think a better approach would be requesting hCaptcha to implement the missing bit. Giving less control to Google is better. Given the widespread tracking they have access to right now.
1f60c 6y ago
> Also this ask a friend solution is like telling someone in a wheelchair to ask a friend to help them up those steps instead of just installing a ramp. I agree, and I could’ve been clearer. The Privacy Pass workaround shouldn’t be necessary and we should demand Cloudflare do better. (To avoid any doubt: I’m not affiliated with Cloudflare in any way, other than that I’m a customer on their free plan.)
dahfizz 6y ago
I think you need to take a deep breathe. You're responding to a rando on the internet, not the CTO of Cloudflare. Your parent is just trying to offer help to OP, and you're mad because you assume he is a Cloudflare dev? Even if he was, it's not like he has unilateral control over product decisions.
DanBC 6y ago
> and just ignore social responsibility. ...and they're ignoring the law in many place.
loco5niner 6y ago
Yes, there are limitations, and I'm sure hcaptcha will get there, but until then, a helpful person on the internet gave a helpful workaround.

technofiend 6y ago

Perhaps it's only a matter of time before volunteers or well meaning organization [1] add captcha solving to bemyeyes-style solutions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightHouse_for_the_Blind_and_Visually_Impaired https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LightHouse_for_the_Blind_and_V...

miki123211 6y ago
There's AIRA and it can do it, if you don't care that another person will see what site you're trying to access and if you're willing to go through a super complicated techy procedure to get a free american phone number, which not everyone knows about. Also, not everyone speaks english.

anticensor 6y ago

There are a couple of bugs[0][1] in Privacy Pass that causes spending tokens during collecting, thereby preventing collecting tokens. [0]: https://github.com/privacypass/challenge-bypass-extension/issues/135 https://github.com/privacypass/challenge-bypass-extension/is... [1]: https://github.com/privacypass/challenge-bypass-extension/issues/177 https://github.com/privacypass/challenge-bypass-extension/is...

alexnewman 6y ago

We also have a special accessibility mode https://www.hcaptcha.com/accessibility https://www.hcaptcha.com/accessibility