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> We can fight it by electing the correct people. Can we? I don't see anyone on either side [0] of the isle doing much of anything about this. > But more imp

> We can fight it by electing the correct people. Can we? I don't see anyone on either side [0] of the isle doing much of anything about this. > But more importantly, I won't be spirited away to a black site by speaking ill about the president. No, but you can be if you're in Portland any time soon. [0] Why TF are we stuck with TWO?

Forbo 6y ago
Because game theory and first past the post electoral system. Nearly any other voting system would be better than what we have.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- r3trohack3r 6y ago
  Help us make that a reality: https://represent.us https://represent.us
iso1210 6y ago
> [0] Why TF are we stuck with TWO? No STV for congress/senate No AV for president Imagine you could rank you votes 1) Cruz 2) Bush (J) 3) McCain 4) Johnson 5) Sanders 6) Trump 7) Clinton (H)
ahahahha 6y ago
> Can we? I don't see anyone on either side [0] of the isle doing much of anything about this. I dont see the point of this argument. If a person has lost faith in US democracy, the person is free to leave. The US does not stop its citizens from leaving like China does with HK. The other option is to stay and work towards a more representative democracy. Doomer questions like "can we" are a waste of everyone's time. On whats happening in Portland: https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/507922-aclu-files-lawsuit-over-federal-agents-in-portland https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/507922-aclu-fil... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53460495 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53460495 I dont see China or Chinese cities doing either of the above. So stop with the false equivalence.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- baddox 6y ago
  Okay, so your argument goes like this: 1. US domestic surveillance is different than China’s because Americans can change things by electing different politicians. 2. Americans cannot actually in practice change things by electing different politicians. 3. If you don’t like it, you can leave. This is a very poor argument.
  - vinay427 6y ago
    Points 2 and 3 seem like mischaracterizations of what they wrote. I'll try to paraphrase based on my interpretation. They seem to implicitly claim that Americans can change things in practice, but that the system can be changed to be made more representative. If someone doesn't believe in that future, they can leave because it's a defeatist view in which nothing they see as possible would really satisfy them. Neither of these points imply Americans can't in practice change things, or that people who don't like the present system should just leave.
  - ahahaha2 6y ago
    Your simplified and mischaracterized bad faith argument is the reason why i dont comment on online forums. If you havent learnt to read and think dispassionately, I'm not going to teach you.
- justanotheranon 6y ago
  i remember back around 2003, just after Bush invaded Iraq, when the bobbleheads on Faux and Toby Kieth were responding to critics of Bush's Global War on Terror by telling the critics "America, love it or leave it." i also remember how this made the pundits on the Left very upset and reconfirmed in their minds that Bush and the Neocons who hijacked America were open Tyrants who eventually embrace stripping American dissidents of their citizenship and deporting them. so when you say we are free to leave, it reminds me of that. why should i leave the place where i was born and abandon my people after i conclude "there is no political solution"? that is PRECISELY the moment to stand and FIGHT. it's what George Washington and Jefferson and Madison and Franklin etc would do if they were us today. i dont want to roll the life dice and pick another lesser country to escape to. what do we do when there is no political solution because the entire edifice of govt from Federal down to local is rotten and hopelessly unfixable? we seize territory from that tyrannical govt and create a new country with a new govt, that's what we do. that's also what the people in China ought to be doing too.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Why TF are we stuck with TWO? We have hundreds of parties. We have have had at most two viable parties nationally, and in each state—though not always the same two—since the founding (with brief moments of only 1 nationally, and a lot more of only one in particular states) because of our FPTP election system for Congress and most state executive and legislative offices, and our even-more-hostile-to-minor-parties Presidential election system.
chillwaves 6y ago
To answer your [0], here is a video from CPG Grey. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

Forbo 6y ago

Because game theory and first past the post electoral system. Nearly any other voting system would be better than what we have.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
r3trohack3r 6y ago
Help us make that a reality: https://represent.us https://represent.us

iso1210 6y ago

> [0] Why TF are we stuck with TWO? No STV for congress/senate No AV for president Imagine you could rank you votes 1) Cruz 2) Bush (J) 3) McCain 4) Johnson 5) Sanders 6) Trump 7) Clinton (H)

ahahahha 6y ago

> Can we? I don't see anyone on either side [0] of the isle doing much of anything about this. I dont see the point of this argument. If a person has lost faith in US democracy, the person is free to leave. The US does not stop its citizens from leaving like China does with HK. The other option is to stay and work towards a more representative democracy. Doomer questions like "can we" are a waste of everyone's time. On whats happening in Portland: https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/507922-aclu-files-lawsuit-over-federal-agents-in-portland https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/507922-aclu-fil... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53460495 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53460495 I dont see China or Chinese cities doing either of the above. So stop with the false equivalence.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
baddox 6y ago
Okay, so your argument goes like this: 1. US domestic surveillance is different than China’s because Americans can change things by electing different politicians. 2. Americans cannot actually in practice change things by electing different politicians. 3. If you don’t like it, you can leave. This is a very poor argument.
- vinay427 6y ago
  Points 2 and 3 seem like mischaracterizations of what they wrote. I'll try to paraphrase based on my interpretation. They seem to implicitly claim that Americans can change things in practice, but that the system can be changed to be made more representative. If someone doesn't believe in that future, they can leave because it's a defeatist view in which nothing they see as possible would really satisfy them. Neither of these points imply Americans can't in practice change things, or that people who don't like the present system should just leave.
- ahahaha2 6y ago
  Your simplified and mischaracterized bad faith argument is the reason why i dont comment on online forums. If you havent learnt to read and think dispassionately, I'm not going to teach you.
justanotheranon 6y ago
i remember back around 2003, just after Bush invaded Iraq, when the bobbleheads on Faux and Toby Kieth were responding to critics of Bush's Global War on Terror by telling the critics "America, love it or leave it." i also remember how this made the pundits on the Left very upset and reconfirmed in their minds that Bush and the Neocons who hijacked America were open Tyrants who eventually embrace stripping American dissidents of their citizenship and deporting them. so when you say we are free to leave, it reminds me of that. why should i leave the place where i was born and abandon my people after i conclude "there is no political solution"? that is PRECISELY the moment to stand and FIGHT. it's what George Washington and Jefferson and Madison and Franklin etc would do if they were us today. i dont want to roll the life dice and pick another lesser country to escape to. what do we do when there is no political solution because the entire edifice of govt from Federal down to local is rotten and hopelessly unfixable? we seize territory from that tyrannical govt and create a new country with a new govt, that's what we do. that's also what the people in China ought to be doing too.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Why TF are we stuck with TWO? We have hundreds of parties. We have have had at most two viable parties nationally, and in each state—though not always the same two—since the founding (with brief moments of only 1 nationally, and a lot more of only one in particular states) because of our FPTP election system for Congress and most state executive and legislative offices, and our even-more-hostile-to-minor-parties Presidential election system.

chillwaves 6y ago

To answer your [0], here is a video from CPG Grey. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo