5 ms·

Yes, modern e-ink capsules are not precise. In fact, they're not intended to be. If you look at an e-ink display under a microscope you'll see that the "pixels

Yes, modern e-ink capsules are not precise. In fact, they're not intended to be. If you look at an e-ink display under a microscope you'll see that the "pixels" are more like "shards" of variously-shaped cells. https://twitter.com/sqfmi/status/1178018736684580865 https://twitter.com/sqfmi/status/1178018736684580865 The "pixels" are made of the actual addressing grid that creates the currents that attract the pigment in the capsules. This is part of what ends up giving the appearance of a higher-resolution display when rendering text, as you get some softer edges "for free." (And it's what makes the display look 'blurry' for some viewers.) So, to your question, there's currently no attempt with the technology to precisely place the colors on the display. The capsules are just spread all over, and the grid does the work.

naravara 6y ago
This makes me sad. Based on what you're describing it's sounding like my dream of having eReaders that are anywhere near sharp enough to do visually rich, full color, documents justice (e.g. nature photography, comic books and graphic novels, well illuminated manuscripts) will never come to fruition. Barring some kind of transformative breakthrough, of course.
- justincormack 6y ago
  colour printing is often made from randomised dot screens, so long as they are small enough its fine.
- ajuc 6y ago
  https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/ConeMosaics.jpg/300px-ConeMosaics.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Co... Rods in eyes aren't on a regular grid anyway, why should it matter how the pixels are distributed as long as they cover the plane and are mostly uniform?
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    Because of what was mentioned way up in the original question: The capsules not being precisely arranged means that they can't be individually addressable. Meaning that you can't use the trick that non-epaper screens typically use where each "pixel" is actually a tightly packed cluster of individual red, green and blue sources that are individually controlled. So instead, each cell is capable of displaying any color, and they've got a more complicated refresh mechanism that they use to "write" to them. And the upshot of that is listed in the specifications from the linked page: The refresh time on this display is 15 seconds. Which is far, far away from where it would need to be in order to be a practical option for color e-readers.
    - bduerst 6y ago
      Except you can do multiple colors, by introducing differently charged pigments inside the capsules: - https://www.eink.com/assets/img/technology/GIF_Cup_E.gif https://www.eink.com/assets/img/technology/GIF_Cup_E.gif - https://www.eink.com/assets/img/technology/GIF_ACeP_E.gif https://www.eink.com/assets/img/technology/GIF_ACeP_E.gif Refresh rate was always an issue, but it is gradually improving. For static reading it's not a problem.
    - mycall 6y ago
      > Meaning that you can't use the trick that non-epaper screens typically use where each "pixel" is actually a tightly packed cluster of individual red, green and blue sources that are individually controlled If there was a way to mix the inks and have them 100% separate by the grid on demand, it could be possible.
    - harlanji 6y ago
      I have the 2.7” 3 color (b) hat, and it is very slow with stock code. As far as I know, and from the looks of the Python code, 2 full buffers are transferred for the colors and then a process of wave stimulating the fluids into arrangement are how it works, very conservatively and slow. There has been work done to the firmware to allow partial updates fast enough for animation, but they should be used sparingly to avoid temporary or permanent burn-in, they say.
  - oceanswave 6y ago
    Who designed these ‘eye’ things anyway, sounds like they took a lot of engineering shortcuts and amassed a metric boat-ton of technical debt
    - mumblemumble 6y ago
      Let it thus be observed that a truly intelligent designer understands how to live comfortably with technical debt.
      - BurningFrog 6y ago
        If I was all-knowing and omnipotent, I'd be OK with that in my code as well.
        falcolas 6y ago
        Isn't tech debt a sign of not being all knowing and omnipotent?
        BurningFrog 6y ago
        I don't know.
        ineedasername 6y ago
        There's always tech debt. It starts to day you build something and ends when it stops being used. How many thousands of python 2.7 programs had "no" tech debt when developed bit now have tons. Tech debt isn't binary, it's a sliding scale.
        abiogenesis 6y ago
        If you were "all knowing", you would've known that Python 3000 would not be backwards compatible and waited until it is released (assuming that you don't have a deadline, such as 7 days).
- samwillis 6y ago
  I think the solution is a dual eink and oled display. Overlay a “transparent” oled on top of an epaper screen and use the oled to display colour images and video while using the epaper for static monochrome regions. I’m not sure that current “transparent” oled technology is transparent and thin enough though.
  - kaendfinger 6y ago
    This sounds really similar to https://www.mobvoi.com/us/pages/ticwatchpro https://www.mobvoi.com/us/pages/ticwatchpro which is a Smartwatch with a dual layer display, one of them is e-ink, the other is an AMOLED display.
    - efreak 6y ago
      Do a search for hybrid eink LCD display; Apple and others were looking into this 10 years ago; the Pixel Qi's 3qi displays were apparently manufactured and used in at least some products, then Apple applied for a more complex patent as well. As far as I can tell, both systems seem to use a layered display. https://www.pcworld.com/article/165724/bye_bye_kindle_netbook_readers_arrive.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/165724/bye_bye_kindle_netboo... https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/04/apple-exploring-hybrid-e-inklcd-display-for-idevices/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/04/apple-exploring-hybr...
- Waterfall 6y ago
  eink should die already. There are other options rather than eink, microLED and some of the newer low refresh LCDs (Clearilk comes to mind) should be much better. https://www.displaydaily.com/article/press-releases/clearink-displays-moving-focus-to-asia https://www.displaydaily.com/article/press-releases/clearink... Lenovo is interested and made a thinkpad with eink so it shouldn't come from a weird no name company in the future.
  - azinman2 6y ago
    Do the others ones not consume power when you don’t need to change the display, are legible in daylight, or otherwise not emit light? These are unique advantages to e-ink as far as I’m aware.
    - Waterfall 6y ago
      It doesn't matter for a stationary screen
      - azinman2 6y ago
        It certainly does depending on your application. Grocery stores use them for prices where you wouldn't want a glow and low power means you can run off a battery. If I integrated into my walls as a smart device I would want a subtle design without a glow. These are just two examples off the top of my head. The application matters. Also where did this stationary context come from?
        Waterfall 6y ago
        People are asking about using it as a monitor in the comments. Grocery stores can do wireless power but the comments are complaining about them being too big or small. You can easily have a non backlit black and white display, like the one on an f91w or LCD clock.
Waterfall 6y ago
The contrast ratio will never make it good for text. I have used the so called high res ones and I would take a 720p LCD any day. They are trash.

naravara 6y ago

This makes me sad. Based on what you're describing it's sounding like my dream of having eReaders that are anywhere near sharp enough to do visually rich, full color, documents justice (e.g. nature photography, comic books and graphic novels, well illuminated manuscripts) will never come to fruition. Barring some kind of transformative breakthrough, of course.

justincormack 6y ago
colour printing is often made from randomised dot screens, so long as they are small enough its fine.
ajuc 6y ago
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/ConeMosaics.jpg/300px-ConeMosaics.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Co... Rods in eyes aren't on a regular grid anyway, why should it matter how the pixels are distributed as long as they cover the plane and are mostly uniform?
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  Because of what was mentioned way up in the original question: The capsules not being precisely arranged means that they can't be individually addressable. Meaning that you can't use the trick that non-epaper screens typically use where each "pixel" is actually a tightly packed cluster of individual red, green and blue sources that are individually controlled. So instead, each cell is capable of displaying any color, and they've got a more complicated refresh mechanism that they use to "write" to them. And the upshot of that is listed in the specifications from the linked page: The refresh time on this display is 15 seconds. Which is far, far away from where it would need to be in order to be a practical option for color e-readers.
  - bduerst 6y ago
    Except you can do multiple colors, by introducing differently charged pigments inside the capsules: - https://www.eink.com/assets/img/technology/GIF_Cup_E.gif https://www.eink.com/assets/img/technology/GIF_Cup_E.gif - https://www.eink.com/assets/img/technology/GIF_ACeP_E.gif https://www.eink.com/assets/img/technology/GIF_ACeP_E.gif Refresh rate was always an issue, but it is gradually improving. For static reading it's not a problem.
  - mycall 6y ago
    > Meaning that you can't use the trick that non-epaper screens typically use where each "pixel" is actually a tightly packed cluster of individual red, green and blue sources that are individually controlled If there was a way to mix the inks and have them 100% separate by the grid on demand, it could be possible.
  - harlanji 6y ago
    I have the 2.7” 3 color (b) hat, and it is very slow with stock code. As far as I know, and from the looks of the Python code, 2 full buffers are transferred for the colors and then a process of wave stimulating the fluids into arrangement are how it works, very conservatively and slow. There has been work done to the firmware to allow partial updates fast enough for animation, but they should be used sparingly to avoid temporary or permanent burn-in, they say.
- oceanswave 6y ago
  Who designed these ‘eye’ things anyway, sounds like they took a lot of engineering shortcuts and amassed a metric boat-ton of technical debt
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    Let it thus be observed that a truly intelligent designer understands how to live comfortably with technical debt.
    - BurningFrog 6y ago
      If I was all-knowing and omnipotent, I'd be OK with that in my code as well.
      - falcolas 6y ago
        Isn't tech debt a sign of not being all knowing and omnipotent?
        BurningFrog 6y ago
        I don't know.
        ineedasername 6y ago
        There's always tech debt. It starts to day you build something and ends when it stops being used. How many thousands of python 2.7 programs had "no" tech debt when developed bit now have tons. Tech debt isn't binary, it's a sliding scale.
        abiogenesis 6y ago
        If you were "all knowing", you would've known that Python 3000 would not be backwards compatible and waited until it is released (assuming that you don't have a deadline, such as 7 days).
samwillis 6y ago
I think the solution is a dual eink and oled display. Overlay a “transparent” oled on top of an epaper screen and use the oled to display colour images and video while using the epaper for static monochrome regions. I’m not sure that current “transparent” oled technology is transparent and thin enough though.
- kaendfinger 6y ago
  This sounds really similar to https://www.mobvoi.com/us/pages/ticwatchpro https://www.mobvoi.com/us/pages/ticwatchpro which is a Smartwatch with a dual layer display, one of them is e-ink, the other is an AMOLED display.
  - efreak 6y ago
    Do a search for hybrid eink LCD display; Apple and others were looking into this 10 years ago; the Pixel Qi's 3qi displays were apparently manufactured and used in at least some products, then Apple applied for a more complex patent as well. As far as I can tell, both systems seem to use a layered display. https://www.pcworld.com/article/165724/bye_bye_kindle_netbook_readers_arrive.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/165724/bye_bye_kindle_netboo... https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/04/apple-exploring-hybrid-e-inklcd-display-for-idevices/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/04/apple-exploring-hybr...
Waterfall 6y ago
eink should die already. There are other options rather than eink, microLED and some of the newer low refresh LCDs (Clearilk comes to mind) should be much better. https://www.displaydaily.com/article/press-releases/clearink-displays-moving-focus-to-asia https://www.displaydaily.com/article/press-releases/clearink... Lenovo is interested and made a thinkpad with eink so it shouldn't come from a weird no name company in the future.
- azinman2 6y ago
  Do the others ones not consume power when you don’t need to change the display, are legible in daylight, or otherwise not emit light? These are unique advantages to e-ink as far as I’m aware.
  - Waterfall 6y ago
    It doesn't matter for a stationary screen
    - azinman2 6y ago
      It certainly does depending on your application. Grocery stores use them for prices where you wouldn't want a glow and low power means you can run off a battery. If I integrated into my walls as a smart device I would want a subtle design without a glow. These are just two examples off the top of my head. The application matters. Also where did this stationary context come from?
      - Waterfall 6y ago
        People are asking about using it as a monitor in the comments. Grocery stores can do wireless power but the comments are complaining about them being too big or small. You can easily have a non backlit black and white display, like the one on an f91w or LCD clock.

Waterfall 6y ago

The contrast ratio will never make it good for text. I have used the so called high res ones and I would take a 720p LCD any day. They are trash.