6 ms·

> Out of the ashes of World War Two came pioneering long-term institutions such as the World Health Organisation, the European Union and welfare states. Compar

> Out of the ashes of World War Two came pioneering long-term institutions such as the World Health Organisation, the European Union and welfare states. Comparing the length of the existence of those organizations to how long many cathedrals took to build (some decades, but some centuries to complete), I don't understand how they're considered "long-term" institutions. It seems like if we want to look at institutions that have been successful long-term institutions, we would want to look at (1) secular governments such as the Roman Republic/Empire (which arguably lasted from the republic's founding in 509 BC until 1453), or Ancient Egyptian or Chinese societies (each of which also lasted through various dynasties as a continuous organization for thousands of years) and (2) various religious groups such as the Catholic/Orthodox Christian Churches which have existed as centralized institutions for a couple millenia.

analbumcover 6y ago
The point isn't that those institutions have existed for long periods of time, but rather that they attempt to address long-term issues.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  That's a weak point. If you say you want to think long-term, which of these do you mean? 1. I want to make plans that have long-term effects I consider desirable. 2. I want to make plans that are similar to those of other organizations which describe themselves as thinking long-term. On the assumption that we're talking about #1, a record of actual longevity always trumps the empty claim of future longevity. You can say whatever you want. Saying you're going to have a long-term impact doesn't mean you're going to have a long-term impact.
  - jchrisa 6y ago
    But surely there must be more to the story than survivorship bias? Can intentions towards long term thinking have the desired effect? If so, it's reasonable to consider what strategies and tactics are most helpful.
  - cbsmith 6y ago
    I think you're being a bit presumptuous about institutions whose lifespan have yet to be determined. It's not like practices from successful long-lived institutions were ignored. The examples you cite suffer from a reality that in many ways those institutions survived for so long in name only. They have transformed significantly enough from one generation to the next as to be largely unrecognizable as the same entity beyond comparative trivialities of language/ceremonies etc. If you pulled together snapshots of them from various points in time and put them together, they'd often be at cross purposes. Of course, the same criticism could be leveled at the post-WWII institutions, but those institutions were defined more by their purpose than their mere existence, so it was "pioneering" in terms of the effort to maintain said purpose, even if in many ways they've failed. I do think looking at the ways they've failed despite design intent and historical knowledge applied to them is potentially very interesting.
deleted 6y ago
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dr_dshiv 6y ago
I believe the academy is the longest lasting institution, founded by Plato in 387 BC.
- idoh 6y ago
  I googled this, found the relevant wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_Academy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_Academy Seems like it has not endured unbroken from then until now. But if you disagree I'd love to read about your take.
  - dr_dshiv 6y ago
    Sure, the academy shut down several times. But, it was a novel mode of social organization -- and as such, it continues today with great effect. Surely the role of the academy in the scientific revolution is certain, for instance.
- fortran77 6y ago
  My Jewish minyan would disagree with that. We've been meeting and discussing the same issues for at least 2500 years.
  - dr_dshiv 6y ago
    Fair enough! One could argue that the nature of the social organization shifted significantly post-temple... But I'd be arguing on your side. Now Buddhism or Jainism, I suppose they would take the prize for longest lasting institutions?
    - fortran77 6y ago
      Buddhism or Jainism may have established social rituals that have been going on longer, I'm not sure. But I always laugh at the "long now" people. If you look at the earliest Jewish writings found, and compare them to what we read and study today, you'll see we've had a lot of continuity over the years and have found a social model that works for this--despite the best efforts of the rest of the world.
simonh 6y ago
I think your fundamentally missing the point of the article in your rush to post a “well actually”. The author is advocating establishing institutions intended to be long term, to tack long term problems. The European Union and WHO are examples of what were intended to be long term institutions to tackle long term problems. They are just representative of this sort of thinking, that is all. Of course there’s no way to know if they will turn out to be long term, that’s clearly impossible. Similarly there is no way to know now if institutions set up now to tackle new long term problems will last. It’s hard to believe that needs to actually be be said. The point is to employ long term thinking in our intentions and actions.
- ksdale 6y ago
  I think you make an excellent point, but I think it is very relevant that basically every institution ever is intended to be long term. Every empire that lasted a thousand years steamrolled however many other aspiring empires that also wanted to last a thousand years, and every long-lived religion outlasted countless cults that had similar aspirations but died with their founding leader. I agree that long term institutions to tackle long term problems are important, but the intent itself feels almost irrelevant, to me anyway.
  - simonh 6y ago
    Intent may not guarantee success, but I can guarantee it’s necessary for having a chance of it.
    - wisty 6y ago
      Replication (or imitation) and mutation in a selective environment can create the illusion of intent without it needing to be present.
    - lmm 6y ago
      Can you? I would wager that many long-lived institutions had no particular intention to be long-lived; I could easily believe that it's actually a negative correlation (just as companies that grow big aren't necessarily those that were aiming to grow big).

analbumcover 6y ago

The point isn't that those institutions have existed for long periods of time, but rather that they attempt to address long-term issues.

thaumasiotes 6y ago
That's a weak point. If you say you want to think long-term, which of these do you mean? 1. I want to make plans that have long-term effects I consider desirable. 2. I want to make plans that are similar to those of other organizations which describe themselves as thinking long-term. On the assumption that we're talking about #1, a record of actual longevity always trumps the empty claim of future longevity. You can say whatever you want. Saying you're going to have a long-term impact doesn't mean you're going to have a long-term impact.
- jchrisa 6y ago
  But surely there must be more to the story than survivorship bias? Can intentions towards long term thinking have the desired effect? If so, it's reasonable to consider what strategies and tactics are most helpful.
- cbsmith 6y ago
  I think you're being a bit presumptuous about institutions whose lifespan have yet to be determined. It's not like practices from successful long-lived institutions were ignored. The examples you cite suffer from a reality that in many ways those institutions survived for so long in name only. They have transformed significantly enough from one generation to the next as to be largely unrecognizable as the same entity beyond comparative trivialities of language/ceremonies etc. If you pulled together snapshots of them from various points in time and put them together, they'd often be at cross purposes. Of course, the same criticism could be leveled at the post-WWII institutions, but those institutions were defined more by their purpose than their mere existence, so it was "pioneering" in terms of the effort to maintain said purpose, even if in many ways they've failed. I do think looking at the ways they've failed despite design intent and historical knowledge applied to them is potentially very interesting.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dr_dshiv 6y ago

I believe the academy is the longest lasting institution, founded by Plato in 387 BC.

idoh 6y ago
I googled this, found the relevant wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_Academy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_Academy Seems like it has not endured unbroken from then until now. But if you disagree I'd love to read about your take.
- dr_dshiv 6y ago
  Sure, the academy shut down several times. But, it was a novel mode of social organization -- and as such, it continues today with great effect. Surely the role of the academy in the scientific revolution is certain, for instance.
fortran77 6y ago
My Jewish minyan would disagree with that. We've been meeting and discussing the same issues for at least 2500 years.
- dr_dshiv 6y ago
  Fair enough! One could argue that the nature of the social organization shifted significantly post-temple... But I'd be arguing on your side. Now Buddhism or Jainism, I suppose they would take the prize for longest lasting institutions?
  - fortran77 6y ago
    Buddhism or Jainism may have established social rituals that have been going on longer, I'm not sure. But I always laugh at the "long now" people. If you look at the earliest Jewish writings found, and compare them to what we read and study today, you'll see we've had a lot of continuity over the years and have found a social model that works for this--despite the best efforts of the rest of the world.

simonh 6y ago

I think your fundamentally missing the point of the article in your rush to post a “well actually”. The author is advocating establishing institutions intended to be long term, to tack long term problems. The European Union and WHO are examples of what were intended to be long term institutions to tackle long term problems. They are just representative of this sort of thinking, that is all. Of course there’s no way to know if they will turn out to be long term, that’s clearly impossible. Similarly there is no way to know now if institutions set up now to tackle new long term problems will last. It’s hard to believe that needs to actually be be said. The point is to employ long term thinking in our intentions and actions.

ksdale 6y ago
I think you make an excellent point, but I think it is very relevant that basically every institution ever is intended to be long term. Every empire that lasted a thousand years steamrolled however many other aspiring empires that also wanted to last a thousand years, and every long-lived religion outlasted countless cults that had similar aspirations but died with their founding leader. I agree that long term institutions to tackle long term problems are important, but the intent itself feels almost irrelevant, to me anyway.
- simonh 6y ago
  Intent may not guarantee success, but I can guarantee it’s necessary for having a chance of it.
  - wisty 6y ago
    Replication (or imitation) and mutation in a selective environment can create the illusion of intent without it needing to be present.
  - lmm 6y ago
    Can you? I would wager that many long-lived institutions had no particular intention to be long-lived; I could easily believe that it's actually a negative correlation (just as companies that grow big aren't necessarily those that were aiming to grow big).