8 ms·

The ones investing in 2k machines would not be using water that causes that kind of scaling, or they can easily have it descaled. To others, if you are not fam

The ones investing in 2k machines would not be using water that causes that kind of scaling, or they can easily have it descaled. To others, if you are not familiar with espresso, avoid manual espresso machines - even with consistent top quality semi-auto machines good espresso is not easy, let alone adding even more play into it with a lever machine. I recommend not getting a home espresso machine at all unless you are really into it. Moka pots, pour over, aeropress are all far far easier, much cheaper, and far less finicky. Save the espresso for a trip to your neighborhood cafe instead - they'll make it far better without the hassle.

donut 6y ago
I recall hearing of an Italian saying, something like this: Either get a mocha pot at home, or get a real espresso machine and open a coffee shop.
- lultimouomo 6y ago
  I think this is much less true now than it was 10 years ago. On the positive side, capsule-based espresso machines do deliver consistent, good quality coffee at home, better than you would get with a consumer espresso machine using pre-ground coffee that you keep in a vat for a couple of weeks. On the negative side, I am often disappointed by the quality of espresso in (Italian) coffee shops. It used to be that the quality of coffee was paramount for a coffee shop, and a good barista either learned how to get good coffee quickly or went home; now it seems this is perceived as a much less important part of the trade, and you regularly get restaurant-quality (as in very mediocre) coffee in coffee shops. Not sure if Nespresso played a role in this too, as less people are walking to a shop to get their coffee.
  - Heliosmaster 6y ago
    (italian here) completely agree. It's not very easy to find a coffee shop where the espresso doesn't taste burnt. I have the feeling the baristas have good technique, but the machines don't get cleaned / serviced enough. Or maybe it's just me, trying more and more different coffee places around europe.
    - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
      > Or maybe it's just me, trying more and more different coffee places around europe. There are some truly great coffee experiences in the US and Australia too - really stretching boundaries, or doing the classic style, much better than in Italy. It seems that Italy has been less innovative in this space - probably because it is "Just coffee" in the way drip is in the US - it is more functional, which is sad, because truly great espresso is a treat.
  - toyg 6y ago
    > It used to be that the quality of coffee was paramount for a coffee shop Italian cities used to be "large towns", where people lived and talked to each other - which meant a low-quality bar would whither and die while good ones thrived, since word of mouth and time availability would allow people to be selective. These areas are now increasingly adopting suburban models, forced by growth and new ways of life. People commute to work, get coffee quickly from the closest bar or from vending machines inside their offices and capannoni, then go back to the 'burbs. There is rarely time to be selective and go "da quello che lo fa buono". Also, in my experience, a lot of bars now make money (and their name) on the 7pm aperitivo rather than on espresso.
  - dahauns 6y ago
    Damn, has the quality really gone down this much in the last decade? :( I haven't been there for, well more than a decade, but coming from Vienna, one of the greatest things when visiting Italy (and what I missed most when I was back home) was that you usually got good espresso even in the smallest shack in the middle of nowhere.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    > On the negative side, I am often disappointed by the quality of espresso in (Italian) coffee shops. In general I agree. It seems that other areas have been doing much more in this space in the US, Australia, etc. At home I like to do things more in the Italian style - but with higher quality beans, and the difference is remarkable.
moehm 6y ago
Do you have any material for diving further in the art of espresso?
- tcharlton 6y ago
  James Hoffman https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMb0O2CdPBNi-QqPk5T3gsQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMb0O2CdPBNi-QqPk5T3gsQ
  - moehm 6y ago
    Thank you. This seems to be the sort of meticulousness I was looking for.
    - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
      James Hoffmann is a great resource for anything coffee and was going to recommend him as well. I think this, from his book, The World Atlas of Coffee, is very telling: > "Making espresso is both incredibly frustrating and also very rewarding. I must offer a word of caution here: don't invest in an espresso machine unless you want a new hobby. The fantasy of whipping up a couple of delicious cappuccinos...is a very long way away from the work involved in preparing the drinks."
hanklazard 6y ago
Agreed, espresso is not easy. However, I'd say for anyone who has been interested in the varieties of ways to make coffee, it is worth trying out. I spent probably $700 buying a decent pre-owned grinder and semi-automatic a few years ago and haven't looked back. After a few months work, I could easily make a better espresso drink (maybe not the perfect double-shot) than many of the local coffee shops around Boston. You'll impress your spouse and your guests too. Anyway, I agree it's tricky and not for everyone ... just came here to tell others it might be worth a try. I'm really glad I went for it.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  I don't want to discourage anyone - just want to inform of the true commitment it is, in cost, space, and patience (at times). It truly is worth it if you really value good espresso and like espresso based drinks. But if you're not going to use it every day, it probably isn't worth it.
defterGoose 6y ago
| Save the espresso for a trip to your neighborhood cafe instead - they'll make it far better without the hassle. This simply hasn't been born out by my experience making espresso at home. By spending about $7-800 on a Rancilio Silvia and a Baratza Vario, and dialing in my process a bit, I'm able to consistently pull as-good or better shots than the premium coffee places around me (LAX). Granted, you have to be detail oriented to be consistently good, but once you've figured out the variables, it's just process. This whole experience has taught me that a multi-thousand dollar HE machine is truly only as good as the person behind the portafilter.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  A baratza vario is what, ~450 USD? So you're over $1000 there. > and dialing in my process a bit, I'm able to consistently pull as-good or better shots than the premium coffee places around me (LAX). Man, that's sad. There are a lot of bad cafes out there - but there are many good ones around me, and I live in a midsized city. > This whole experience has taught me that a multi-thousand dollar HE machine is truly only as good as the person behind the portafilter. The consistency is what matters - a bad barista makes bad coffee no matter the machine. But expensive machines and grinders make more consistent coffee, period, and offer much more chance for variation with PIDs, pressure change, temperature change, etc. Look, for us espresso afficionados, it may seem easy. But I remember my first machine - it took me a year to pull consistently good espresso shots. Perhaps our expectations are simply different.
enjeyw 6y ago
My partner and I have both worked as baristas in Melbourne, Australia (where the quality expectation is high) and have experience with all manner of 20,000 dollar espresso machines. We still swear by our Moka pot for home coffee. It's so much less finicky and combined with a hand-grinder is ridiculously portable. Easy to throw into a backpack when you're travelling! Hmmmm I think I'll go make a coffee now...
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  I grew up on Moka pot (as most Italian families have) - it truly is a great little device. Making a few modifications to brewing it, it really shines.
wastedhours 6y ago
> avoid manual espresso machines - even with consistent top quality semi-auto machines good espresso is not easy I was always able to get something I enjoyed drinking out of an entry level, single boiler, home espresso machine. It was also fun and meditative learning the skill and doing the routine. I'd take a less than perfect home espresso over just endless other brewed methods. I love an occasional pour-over, but not every day. Everyone always says to avoid it, and that's true if you can't envisage doing it a couple of times a day (in which case, the cost and kitchen workspace requirements make it silly), but personally, I'd take an 80% espresso at home over not.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  You are like me, espresso is worth it to us. But to many it is not. The space, cost, difficulty to achieve good coffee...most people just want their coffee.
  - wastedhours 6y ago
    True, but if you're ok with an 70-80% good espresso, it's much more attainable at £200 for a cheapy machine and entry level burr grinder than some comments imply. It might be more worth it to someone to enter at this price point than having to pay for semi-pro gear as the "you can't get good espresso at home" comments suggest. I just don't want people who might want an alright drink at home to be put off, you can get ok results at home with cheap equipment. It won't be as good as what you can get with a GS/3 and a Sette, but won't be too bad.
    - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
      > it's much more attainable at £200 for a cheapy machine and entry level burr grinder than some comments imply. The number one complaint I get from new hobbyists is "some shots are amazing and some aren't, why?" It's almost always using a stepped burr grinder, like the Baratza encore, for espresso. It just doesn't produce consistent enough grinds and because it's stepped sometimes it will be impossible to dial in. > I just don't want people who might want an alright drink at home to be put off, you can get ok results at home with cheap equipment. It won't be as good as what you can get with a GS/3 and a Sette, but won't be too bad. The problem is the consistency - you'll have more bad shots than good. I always tell people get a cheaper machine and a better grinder and you'll be better of for it. I don't want to turn anyone off either. But I know quite a few people who have went down the rabbit whole to be upset.
Lio 6y ago
But Moka isn't espresso and neither is Aeropress. They don't even pretend to be. I think it's pretty easy to get a good, consistent espresso from something like a cheap home Breville/Sage/Solis machine. You don't really need to be very "into it" for that. Just buy good beans and adjust the grinder as per the instructions and feedback either from the timer or pressure gauge. They're just a few hundred bucks for a decent single boiler machine. Too many cafes just service customers wanting milk based coffee these days to really care about espresso drinking customers. IMHO that's why they have these weird "espresso" roasts which are really just over-roasted or overly acidic (to my pallet) "green" roasts. Just get a decent medium roast, a conical burr grinder (can be built into the machine) and you're good to go.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  > But Moka isn't espresso and neither is Aeropress. It isn't - but what most people want is coffee. They think they want espresso - until they realize how expensive and truly difficult it is to dial in. > You don't really need to be very "into it" for that. Just buy good beans and adjust the grinder as per the instructions and feedback either from the timer or pressure gauge. Which grinder? Most grinders don't properly grind for espresso - you need a solid burr grinder specifically for espresso to get consistent results. You're starting at $400. Which Cafe's are you guys going to? So many great espresso options in my city (A mid-sized city). I highly doubt you can't find good espresso in any major city.
  - Lio 6y ago
    A Breville Barista Express for $699[1] with a built in grinder. It’s fool proof, really. 1. https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/breville-barista-express-espresso-machine-bes870xl https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/breville-barista-express-e...
    - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
      It's a great entry level espresso machine for sure, but the grinder is just OK, and is conical, also it is a heat-exchanger system which isn't good for making a lot of shots compared to a dual boiler.
stinos 6y ago
This sounds a bit too negative to me; probably biased as I am because I have a Cafelat Robot manual machine, but still: making an espresso which is of the same rich taste and quality as a 5k+ machine with said manual machine is not really that hard or very finicky (imo). Grind, put in basket, boil water and in the meantime level coffee in basket and put metal screen on top, once water boils pour in basket, then make the espresso. Ok it's a process, but apart from there being few more steps than filter/French/moka/... and requiring some short physical activity it doesn't take that long. I admit that with every new bean I try it takes one or 2 suboptimal cups to tune grind setting but from then on it's spot on.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  > Grind, put in basket, boil water and in the meantime level coffee in basket and put metal screen on top, once water boils pour in basket, then make the espresso. What grind setting? Temperature fluctuations matter - too hot and the coffee tastes burnt. Pressure changes the profile. The key to good espresso is consistency - for someone who is using a manual, typically they have experience with espresso. They think surely it is easy, the way a math PHD thinks calculus is easy. But it isn't that easy - and once you realize you need a good grinder and not a baratza encore, you'll see the cost further increase. Also, manuals lack a steam wand which is a real downside.
  - stinos 6y ago
    Apart from drinking it, I had zero experience with Espresso before getting the machine. Yes grind setting matters (though it would make no sense for me to tell you what grind setting I use because it's an arbitrary number, specific to the brand/type and sometimes even unique to the grinder), and temperature, and pressure, and amount of coffee. But from day 1 I could produce consistent shots by keeping those variables the same in between shots which isn't rocket science so I still think your comparision with a PHD is a bridge too far, it's really not that hard. Ok I'm a handy engineering type, but if you read on forums it's pretty clear: people without those skills also manage to produce consistent shots. You could blame that on confirmation bias, but: have you ever tried a manual machine yourself and got a decent espresso out of it? you'll see the cost further increase Of course. But making consistent espresso without a decent grinder, now that's hard, so you know on beforehand it's in the price. And a grinder lasts years or decades and it's pretty likely a decent manual machine does so as well. Also, manuals lack a steam wand which is a real downside. Only if you want it, which I don't.

donut 6y ago

I recall hearing of an Italian saying, something like this: Either get a mocha pot at home, or get a real espresso machine and open a coffee shop.

lultimouomo 6y ago
I think this is much less true now than it was 10 years ago. On the positive side, capsule-based espresso machines do deliver consistent, good quality coffee at home, better than you would get with a consumer espresso machine using pre-ground coffee that you keep in a vat for a couple of weeks. On the negative side, I am often disappointed by the quality of espresso in (Italian) coffee shops. It used to be that the quality of coffee was paramount for a coffee shop, and a good barista either learned how to get good coffee quickly or went home; now it seems this is perceived as a much less important part of the trade, and you regularly get restaurant-quality (as in very mediocre) coffee in coffee shops. Not sure if Nespresso played a role in this too, as less people are walking to a shop to get their coffee.
- Heliosmaster 6y ago
  (italian here) completely agree. It's not very easy to find a coffee shop where the espresso doesn't taste burnt. I have the feeling the baristas have good technique, but the machines don't get cleaned / serviced enough. Or maybe it's just me, trying more and more different coffee places around europe.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    > Or maybe it's just me, trying more and more different coffee places around europe. There are some truly great coffee experiences in the US and Australia too - really stretching boundaries, or doing the classic style, much better than in Italy. It seems that Italy has been less innovative in this space - probably because it is "Just coffee" in the way drip is in the US - it is more functional, which is sad, because truly great espresso is a treat.
- toyg 6y ago
  > It used to be that the quality of coffee was paramount for a coffee shop Italian cities used to be "large towns", where people lived and talked to each other - which meant a low-quality bar would whither and die while good ones thrived, since word of mouth and time availability would allow people to be selective. These areas are now increasingly adopting suburban models, forced by growth and new ways of life. People commute to work, get coffee quickly from the closest bar or from vending machines inside their offices and capannoni, then go back to the 'burbs. There is rarely time to be selective and go "da quello che lo fa buono". Also, in my experience, a lot of bars now make money (and their name) on the 7pm aperitivo rather than on espresso.
- dahauns 6y ago
  Damn, has the quality really gone down this much in the last decade? :( I haven't been there for, well more than a decade, but coming from Vienna, one of the greatest things when visiting Italy (and what I missed most when I was back home) was that you usually got good espresso even in the smallest shack in the middle of nowhere.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  > On the negative side, I am often disappointed by the quality of espresso in (Italian) coffee shops. In general I agree. It seems that other areas have been doing much more in this space in the US, Australia, etc. At home I like to do things more in the Italian style - but with higher quality beans, and the difference is remarkable.

moehm 6y ago

Do you have any material for diving further in the art of espresso?

tcharlton 6y ago
James Hoffman https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMb0O2CdPBNi-QqPk5T3gsQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMb0O2CdPBNi-QqPk5T3gsQ
- moehm 6y ago
  Thank you. This seems to be the sort of meticulousness I was looking for.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    James Hoffmann is a great resource for anything coffee and was going to recommend him as well. I think this, from his book, The World Atlas of Coffee, is very telling: > "Making espresso is both incredibly frustrating and also very rewarding. I must offer a word of caution here: don't invest in an espresso machine unless you want a new hobby. The fantasy of whipping up a couple of delicious cappuccinos...is a very long way away from the work involved in preparing the drinks."

hanklazard 6y ago

Agreed, espresso is not easy. However, I'd say for anyone who has been interested in the varieties of ways to make coffee, it is worth trying out. I spent probably $700 buying a decent pre-owned grinder and semi-automatic a few years ago and haven't looked back. After a few months work, I could easily make a better espresso drink (maybe not the perfect double-shot) than many of the local coffee shops around Boston. You'll impress your spouse and your guests too. Anyway, I agree it's tricky and not for everyone ... just came here to tell others it might be worth a try. I'm really glad I went for it.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
I don't want to discourage anyone - just want to inform of the true commitment it is, in cost, space, and patience (at times). It truly is worth it if you really value good espresso and like espresso based drinks. But if you're not going to use it every day, it probably isn't worth it.

defterGoose 6y ago

| Save the espresso for a trip to your neighborhood cafe instead - they'll make it far better without the hassle. This simply hasn't been born out by my experience making espresso at home. By spending about $7-800 on a Rancilio Silvia and a Baratza Vario, and dialing in my process a bit, I'm able to consistently pull as-good or better shots than the premium coffee places around me (LAX). Granted, you have to be detail oriented to be consistently good, but once you've figured out the variables, it's just process. This whole experience has taught me that a multi-thousand dollar HE machine is truly only as good as the person behind the portafilter.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
A baratza vario is what, ~450 USD? So you're over $1000 there. > and dialing in my process a bit, I'm able to consistently pull as-good or better shots than the premium coffee places around me (LAX). Man, that's sad. There are a lot of bad cafes out there - but there are many good ones around me, and I live in a midsized city. > This whole experience has taught me that a multi-thousand dollar HE machine is truly only as good as the person behind the portafilter. The consistency is what matters - a bad barista makes bad coffee no matter the machine. But expensive machines and grinders make more consistent coffee, period, and offer much more chance for variation with PIDs, pressure change, temperature change, etc. Look, for us espresso afficionados, it may seem easy. But I remember my first machine - it took me a year to pull consistently good espresso shots. Perhaps our expectations are simply different.

enjeyw 6y ago

My partner and I have both worked as baristas in Melbourne, Australia (where the quality expectation is high) and have experience with all manner of 20,000 dollar espresso machines. We still swear by our Moka pot for home coffee. It's so much less finicky and combined with a hand-grinder is ridiculously portable. Easy to throw into a backpack when you're travelling! Hmmmm I think I'll go make a coffee now...

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
I grew up on Moka pot (as most Italian families have) - it truly is a great little device. Making a few modifications to brewing it, it really shines.

wastedhours 6y ago

> avoid manual espresso machines - even with consistent top quality semi-auto machines good espresso is not easy I was always able to get something I enjoyed drinking out of an entry level, single boiler, home espresso machine. It was also fun and meditative learning the skill and doing the routine. I'd take a less than perfect home espresso over just endless other brewed methods. I love an occasional pour-over, but not every day. Everyone always says to avoid it, and that's true if you can't envisage doing it a couple of times a day (in which case, the cost and kitchen workspace requirements make it silly), but personally, I'd take an 80% espresso at home over not.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
You are like me, espresso is worth it to us. But to many it is not. The space, cost, difficulty to achieve good coffee...most people just want their coffee.
- wastedhours 6y ago
  True, but if you're ok with an 70-80% good espresso, it's much more attainable at £200 for a cheapy machine and entry level burr grinder than some comments imply. It might be more worth it to someone to enter at this price point than having to pay for semi-pro gear as the "you can't get good espresso at home" comments suggest. I just don't want people who might want an alright drink at home to be put off, you can get ok results at home with cheap equipment. It won't be as good as what you can get with a GS/3 and a Sette, but won't be too bad.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    > it's much more attainable at £200 for a cheapy machine and entry level burr grinder than some comments imply. The number one complaint I get from new hobbyists is "some shots are amazing and some aren't, why?" It's almost always using a stepped burr grinder, like the Baratza encore, for espresso. It just doesn't produce consistent enough grinds and because it's stepped sometimes it will be impossible to dial in. > I just don't want people who might want an alright drink at home to be put off, you can get ok results at home with cheap equipment. It won't be as good as what you can get with a GS/3 and a Sette, but won't be too bad. The problem is the consistency - you'll have more bad shots than good. I always tell people get a cheaper machine and a better grinder and you'll be better of for it. I don't want to turn anyone off either. But I know quite a few people who have went down the rabbit whole to be upset.

Lio 6y ago

But Moka isn't espresso and neither is Aeropress. They don't even pretend to be. I think it's pretty easy to get a good, consistent espresso from something like a cheap home Breville/Sage/Solis machine. You don't really need to be very "into it" for that. Just buy good beans and adjust the grinder as per the instructions and feedback either from the timer or pressure gauge. They're just a few hundred bucks for a decent single boiler machine. Too many cafes just service customers wanting milk based coffee these days to really care about espresso drinking customers. IMHO that's why they have these weird "espresso" roasts which are really just over-roasted or overly acidic (to my pallet) "green" roasts. Just get a decent medium roast, a conical burr grinder (can be built into the machine) and you're good to go.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
> But Moka isn't espresso and neither is Aeropress. It isn't - but what most people want is coffee. They think they want espresso - until they realize how expensive and truly difficult it is to dial in. > You don't really need to be very "into it" for that. Just buy good beans and adjust the grinder as per the instructions and feedback either from the timer or pressure gauge. Which grinder? Most grinders don't properly grind for espresso - you need a solid burr grinder specifically for espresso to get consistent results. You're starting at $400. Which Cafe's are you guys going to? So many great espresso options in my city (A mid-sized city). I highly doubt you can't find good espresso in any major city.
- Lio 6y ago
  A Breville Barista Express for $699[1] with a built in grinder. It’s fool proof, really. 1. https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/breville-barista-express-espresso-machine-bes870xl https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/breville-barista-express-e...
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    It's a great entry level espresso machine for sure, but the grinder is just OK, and is conical, also it is a heat-exchanger system which isn't good for making a lot of shots compared to a dual boiler.

stinos 6y ago

This sounds a bit too negative to me; probably biased as I am because I have a Cafelat Robot manual machine, but still: making an espresso which is of the same rich taste and quality as a 5k+ machine with said manual machine is not really that hard or very finicky (imo). Grind, put in basket, boil water and in the meantime level coffee in basket and put metal screen on top, once water boils pour in basket, then make the espresso. Ok it's a process, but apart from there being few more steps than filter/French/moka/... and requiring some short physical activity it doesn't take that long. I admit that with every new bean I try it takes one or 2 suboptimal cups to tune grind setting but from then on it's spot on.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
> Grind, put in basket, boil water and in the meantime level coffee in basket and put metal screen on top, once water boils pour in basket, then make the espresso. What grind setting? Temperature fluctuations matter - too hot and the coffee tastes burnt. Pressure changes the profile. The key to good espresso is consistency - for someone who is using a manual, typically they have experience with espresso. They think surely it is easy, the way a math PHD thinks calculus is easy. But it isn't that easy - and once you realize you need a good grinder and not a baratza encore, you'll see the cost further increase. Also, manuals lack a steam wand which is a real downside.
- stinos 6y ago
  Apart from drinking it, I had zero experience with Espresso before getting the machine. Yes grind setting matters (though it would make no sense for me to tell you what grind setting I use because it's an arbitrary number, specific to the brand/type and sometimes even unique to the grinder), and temperature, and pressure, and amount of coffee. But from day 1 I could produce consistent shots by keeping those variables the same in between shots which isn't rocket science so I still think your comparision with a PHD is a bridge too far, it's really not that hard. Ok I'm a handy engineering type, but if you read on forums it's pretty clear: people without those skills also manage to produce consistent shots. You could blame that on confirmation bias, but: have you ever tried a manual machine yourself and got a decent espresso out of it? you'll see the cost further increase Of course. But making consistent espresso without a decent grinder, now that's hard, so you know on beforehand it's in the price. And a grinder lasts years or decades and it's pretty likely a decent manual machine does so as well. Also, manuals lack a steam wand which is a real downside. Only if you want it, which I don't.