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The West was not merely it's democracy political system. It is also the market economy. Overwhelming amount of US politicians state the same thing. For example,

The West was not merely it's democracy political system. It is also the market economy. Overwhelming amount of US politicians state the same thing. For example, most US president express one of the core principles of western system is market economy. Again, I want to emphasize that I am not defending CCP. What typical HNers stated about CCP's "crimes" are nothing but typical political polis. Let me say one thing, CCP organized the suppression of Han Chinese population, totaling probably 100+ millions baby, through the one child policy. While at the same time allow racial injustice by selectively applying the rule (I.e. force it strictly on normal Han people, but allow political figures and some population the free rein). And the systematic exploitation on the rural population during since 1976 opening up probably was the most cruel of all of the modernization process. These were seldom mentioned by Westerners. Of course, china's rise is complex phenomenon. It has many debatable elements. But decisively, it's rise was enabled by adopting core western value system, forsaking the Soviet Union era Communism doctrine. It's in that sense that I believe it is a fair statement to say China's rise is the rise of the West.

tristor 6y ago
I see the point you're trying to make, but I don't see any market economy in China. I see China directly manipulating currency markets, stock markets and requiring state ownership or control of all major companies, as well as the creation of SRCs. This is not a market economy, it's a vehicle to enable foreign dollars to prop up state actions. I mean, the Chinese government even manipulates data at all levels to lie about the status of their economy intentionally and with no attempt to even report accurate data. It's so bad that most Western companies which make serious investments in China use other data as a proxy and perform their own analytics to determine market movement separate from what is reported by the government. I'm not going to go digging for a pile of links, but here's one article in the Financial Times discussing how far off the official numbers are: https://www.ft.com/content/961b4b32-3fce-11e9-b896-fe36ec32aece https://www.ft.com/content/961b4b32-3fce-11e9-b896-fe36ec32a... There's some depth there, I don't think all of the misreporting in China is machinations occurring at the top. I've seen too many substantiated reports of more minor governmental officials reporting incorrect data to save face or to enhance their own position politically within the CCP and once that data becomes analyzed in aggregate it will lead to incorrect results. It seems there's a "vig" being added at every layer, such that it may not even be possible for China to report accurate data. Market economies run off of data and information, fundamentally. The stock market itself is just a mechanism to set pricing and valuation based on all available collected data. It's essentially a mechanism for crowd-sourcing, where the people participating have skin in the game and a vested interest in making a meaningful analysis of the data available to them. China manipulates and misreports data as a matter of course and directly intercedes to manipulate what little in the way of markets actually exist, so it cannot be in any way described as a "free market economy" (that word "free" is crucial to the Western capitalistic way).
- justicezyx 6y ago
  China economy has a vibrant private sector, takes about 60% of the economy, and is the main driver of the economy growth [1]. There are plenty of Chinese startups IPOed in US in the past years. Of course the data was manipulated and inflated. But does that totally changes the primary effect of market economy in China. I cannot find a logical connection in between... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2019/09/30/state-capitalism-no-the-private-sector-was-and-is-the-main-driver-of-chinas-economic-growth/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2019/09/30/stat...

tristor 6y ago

I see the point you're trying to make, but I don't see any market economy in China. I see China directly manipulating currency markets, stock markets and requiring state ownership or control of all major companies, as well as the creation of SRCs. This is not a market economy, it's a vehicle to enable foreign dollars to prop up state actions. I mean, the Chinese government even manipulates data at all levels to lie about the status of their economy intentionally and with no attempt to even report accurate data. It's so bad that most Western companies which make serious investments in China use other data as a proxy and perform their own analytics to determine market movement separate from what is reported by the government. I'm not going to go digging for a pile of links, but here's one article in the Financial Times discussing how far off the official numbers are: https://www.ft.com/content/961b4b32-3fce-11e9-b896-fe36ec32aece https://www.ft.com/content/961b4b32-3fce-11e9-b896-fe36ec32a... There's some depth there, I don't think all of the misreporting in China is machinations occurring at the top. I've seen too many substantiated reports of more minor governmental officials reporting incorrect data to save face or to enhance their own position politically within the CCP and once that data becomes analyzed in aggregate it will lead to incorrect results. It seems there's a "vig" being added at every layer, such that it may not even be possible for China to report accurate data. Market economies run off of data and information, fundamentally. The stock market itself is just a mechanism to set pricing and valuation based on all available collected data. It's essentially a mechanism for crowd-sourcing, where the people participating have skin in the game and a vested interest in making a meaningful analysis of the data available to them. China manipulates and misreports data as a matter of course and directly intercedes to manipulate what little in the way of markets actually exist, so it cannot be in any way described as a "free market economy" (that word "free" is crucial to the Western capitalistic way).

justicezyx 6y ago
China economy has a vibrant private sector, takes about 60% of the economy, and is the main driver of the economy growth [1]. There are plenty of Chinese startups IPOed in US in the past years. Of course the data was manipulated and inflated. But does that totally changes the primary effect of market economy in China. I cannot find a logical connection in between... [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2019/09/30/state-capitalism-no-the-private-sector-was-and-is-the-main-driver-of-chinas-economic-growth/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/rainerzitelmann/2019/09/30/stat...