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It's not at all clear to me why we should be concerned with the decline of a proposed "west." Many of the traits folks laud the "West" for were in fact the prod

It's not at all clear to me why we should be concerned with the decline of a proposed "west." Many of the traits folks laud the "West" for were in fact the products of a series of influences from many other cultures at the time. Desirable traits for a society inviting growth, prosperity and egalitarianism can exist in nearly any industrialized society today, and many of them currently fall short of their stated ideals when difficulty is encountered. Further, society as a whole seems to make lots of progress when small and large overturnings (or revolutions?) happen. Poorly formulated ideas are refined or discarded, and values are reaffirmed. Counter-revolutionary elements seek to roll them back, but even in success they're irrevocably changed for the experience and cannot help but define their mission in terms of their challengers. Let's worry more about creating a sustainable, distributed, and well-understood technology base. Unlike culture, that actually takes time and infrastructure to build.

justicezyx 6y ago
Spot on! The decline of West was invented as a tool to mobilize certain groups of Western population, just like any cultural and/or political narrative. To name one obvious narrow prejudice: The prosperity in China was brought by market economy and Western corporation mechanisms. The rise of China is the rise of West. And often cited as one indication of the decline of the West.
- tristor 6y ago
  The rise of China is /not/ the rise of the West. It's something we haven't exactly seen before, it's the rise of a new type of Totalitarian Fascism which is supplanting Totalitarian Communism to intentionally enrich a blessed few through state-run corporations. There is nothing even resembling a "free market" in China, and most of the official economic reporting in China is falsehoods and outright lies. As Benito Mussolini said "“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” and what would be a more accurate description of how China creates and structures SRCs? What created prosperity in China was not adoption of Western corporate mechanisms and a market economy, it was the realization of party leadership that if they created an appropriate facade it would allow Western Neoliberals to create the necessary messages to shift economic policy and allow foreign money to flood into China, enriching party officials and their cronies by using the massive population of destitute people ripe for exploitation as unskilled labor. Both before and after, China remains a totalitarian country run by despots, but now they are able to put a veil of acceptability over their actions which has greatly helped their propaganda machine in the West as people eat it up.
  - KirinDave 6y ago
    > it's the rise of a new type of Totalitarian Fascism which is supplanting Totalitarian Communism If the argument is "putting capitalism in a box and using it to motivate government hegemony" is "the rise of a new type" of "fascism" unique to China, that's not true at all. Avoiding comparisons to certain "western" governments, Germà Bel argues convincingly that Nazi Germany was deeply committed to this strategy [0]. It's the western party line that this is exactly what the post-revolutionary Soviet Union ended up doing sometime after Stalin, ultimately leading to its dissolution into what can only be called an Oligarchy. And uh, I think it's at least worth debating if the US responded to the Great Depression by doing the same thing; essentially using the notion of "jobs" programs and "public works" projects to move lots of money into corporate government supporters rather than directly providing relief. > , it was the realization of party leadership that if they created an appropriate facade it would allow Western Neoliberals to create the necessary messages to shift economic policy and allow foreign money to flood into China Maybe, but if that's the case than that's them simply noticing what various other economic projects the US in particular was already engaged in. I'm still not convinced "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by Perkins is entirely made up. > Both before and after, China remains a totalitarian country run by despots, but now they are able to put a veil of acceptability over their actions which has greatly helped their propaganda machine in the West as people eat it up. Perhaps so. But any government is only a few leaps from fascism. See, for example, the Philippines. The US's response to COVID-19 and its current use of loyalist "border control forces" to "defend federal monuments" while violating subject Miranda Rights, States Rights, and arguably the US Constitution should remind us that it is not so long a fall for any organized nation. Two bad things can be bad. [0] http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf
    - tristor 6y ago
      Agreed on basically all points here. My criticism of the state of China is not a defense of the state of the West. It's merely intended to provide a clear distinction between the two, and to combat the rising pro-CCP shilling I see happening consistently on HN. It is very much possible for two different bad things to both be bad.
chrisco255 6y ago
No, society does not necessarily make large technical progress during overturnings or revolution. Rome is a case in point. Western society slid into nearly 1000 years of stagnation. At any rate, culture is far more foundational than you suppose and it's very difficult to get right. And when a culture has become corrupt or toxic it is very difficult to get anything of value done at all.
- KirinDave 6y ago
  This seems like a very, very sketchy definition of "progress." The later 1/3rd of Rome was not exactly full of memorable technological and intellectual progress, especially compared to its neighbors. Roman's are sorta famous in history for their lack of interest in anything but making war. There's a reason we don't refer to many roman math treaties; they were often very dogmatic texts referring to greek works and heavily influenced by the lens of military problems; and often fantastically wrong.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    Well maybe for intellectual works, you're right, but their civil engineering prowess was unmatched for 1000 years. But again, you're just underscoring my point... this "war making" culture prevented other types of intellectualism from flourishing. Culture matters. And cultural revolutions can just as easily wind up in hell as in heaven.
    - KirinDave 6y ago
      Isn't that my point? That we shouldn't be afraid of cultural change if it brings about more of the values we want and less of the values we don't? "Cancel Culture" is much feared by many, as an example, but in practice it actually intensifies public debate among questionable issues while not wasting time allowing folks with classically racist views to muddy the more pressing issues, so while it can feel painful sometimes, it seems like a net good.

justicezyx 6y ago

Spot on! The decline of West was invented as a tool to mobilize certain groups of Western population, just like any cultural and/or political narrative. To name one obvious narrow prejudice: The prosperity in China was brought by market economy and Western corporation mechanisms. The rise of China is the rise of West. And often cited as one indication of the decline of the West.

tristor 6y ago
The rise of China is /not/ the rise of the West. It's something we haven't exactly seen before, it's the rise of a new type of Totalitarian Fascism which is supplanting Totalitarian Communism to intentionally enrich a blessed few through state-run corporations. There is nothing even resembling a "free market" in China, and most of the official economic reporting in China is falsehoods and outright lies. As Benito Mussolini said "“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power” and what would be a more accurate description of how China creates and structures SRCs? What created prosperity in China was not adoption of Western corporate mechanisms and a market economy, it was the realization of party leadership that if they created an appropriate facade it would allow Western Neoliberals to create the necessary messages to shift economic policy and allow foreign money to flood into China, enriching party officials and their cronies by using the massive population of destitute people ripe for exploitation as unskilled labor. Both before and after, China remains a totalitarian country run by despots, but now they are able to put a veil of acceptability over their actions which has greatly helped their propaganda machine in the West as people eat it up.
- KirinDave 6y ago
  > it's the rise of a new type of Totalitarian Fascism which is supplanting Totalitarian Communism If the argument is "putting capitalism in a box and using it to motivate government hegemony" is "the rise of a new type" of "fascism" unique to China, that's not true at all. Avoiding comparisons to certain "western" governments, Germà Bel argues convincingly that Nazi Germany was deeply committed to this strategy [0]. It's the western party line that this is exactly what the post-revolutionary Soviet Union ended up doing sometime after Stalin, ultimately leading to its dissolution into what can only be called an Oligarchy. And uh, I think it's at least worth debating if the US responded to the Great Depression by doing the same thing; essentially using the notion of "jobs" programs and "public works" projects to move lots of money into corporate government supporters rather than directly providing relief. > , it was the realization of party leadership that if they created an appropriate facade it would allow Western Neoliberals to create the necessary messages to shift economic policy and allow foreign money to flood into China Maybe, but if that's the case than that's them simply noticing what various other economic projects the US in particular was already engaged in. I'm still not convinced "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by Perkins is entirely made up. > Both before and after, China remains a totalitarian country run by despots, but now they are able to put a veil of acceptability over their actions which has greatly helped their propaganda machine in the West as people eat it up. Perhaps so. But any government is only a few leaps from fascism. See, for example, the Philippines. The US's response to COVID-19 and its current use of loyalist "border control forces" to "defend federal monuments" while violating subject Miranda Rights, States Rights, and arguably the US Constitution should remind us that it is not so long a fall for any organized nation. Two bad things can be bad. [0] http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf http://www.ub.edu/graap/nazi.pdf
  - tristor 6y ago
    Agreed on basically all points here. My criticism of the state of China is not a defense of the state of the West. It's merely intended to provide a clear distinction between the two, and to combat the rising pro-CCP shilling I see happening consistently on HN. It is very much possible for two different bad things to both be bad.

chrisco255 6y ago

No, society does not necessarily make large technical progress during overturnings or revolution. Rome is a case in point. Western society slid into nearly 1000 years of stagnation. At any rate, culture is far more foundational than you suppose and it's very difficult to get right. And when a culture has become corrupt or toxic it is very difficult to get anything of value done at all.

KirinDave 6y ago
This seems like a very, very sketchy definition of "progress." The later 1/3rd of Rome was not exactly full of memorable technological and intellectual progress, especially compared to its neighbors. Roman's are sorta famous in history for their lack of interest in anything but making war. There's a reason we don't refer to many roman math treaties; they were often very dogmatic texts referring to greek works and heavily influenced by the lens of military problems; and often fantastically wrong.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  Well maybe for intellectual works, you're right, but their civil engineering prowess was unmatched for 1000 years. But again, you're just underscoring my point... this "war making" culture prevented other types of intellectualism from flourishing. Culture matters. And cultural revolutions can just as easily wind up in hell as in heaven.
  - KirinDave 6y ago
    Isn't that my point? That we shouldn't be afraid of cultural change if it brings about more of the values we want and less of the values we don't? "Cancel Culture" is much feared by many, as an example, but in practice it actually intensifies public debate among questionable issues while not wasting time allowing folks with classically racist views to muddy the more pressing issues, so while it can feel painful sometimes, it seems like a net good.