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As a European I find the patriotic displays before sports matches in the US a little vomit inducing. It's paid for by the military and not some spontaneous disp

As a European I find the patriotic displays before sports matches in the US a little vomit inducing. It's paid for by the military and not some spontaneous display of love for the country, and it's a little fascist in that anyone refusing to take part (Colin Kaepernick? But also people in the crowd who don't stand) stands out like a sore thumb. Then there's the "let's clap for veterans" mid-way through the game and whatnot, sometimes bringing one or two onto the pitch for everyone to gawk at. It seems to me like the whole thing is a choreographed process to show impressionable youngsters who lack self respect that they will be respected by society if they wage war on its behalf.

Waterfall 6y ago
>It seems to me like the whole thing is a choreographed process to show impressionable youngsters who lack self respect that they will be respected by society if they wage war on its behalf. We all had to do the pledge of allegiance in high school every day. You may see that as an adult, but after doing it for over a decade I was just saying we-puppet instead of republic and never understood what it meant or cared. It was just a habit, like saying death to america or something.
- sleavey 6y ago
  Does the pledge of allegiance in school every day still happen? I always figured that was some sort of Cold War thing.
  - Waterfall 6y ago
    No idea, I think it still does. I doubt kids are being indoctrinated by it, its a ritual like lighting incense, we remember the ritual but not why or the context. Only now when people complain about it do I realize it had no effect on my patriotism. I didn't learn what a republic was for most of the years. What does one nation under god mean? No idea still.
  - Balgair 6y ago
    Depends on school, district, grade level, etc. If I walked into any school in the country and saw it not/occurring, I would not be surprised or perturbed at all. It's just kinda part of life. Think how Japan does calisthenics before work/school every morning. Not everyone does it, but enough do that it's kinda just part of Japan.
- fit2rule 6y ago
  It certainly seems to have set you up for a life of unthinking servitude to the state and its criminal military...
  - dang 6y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. Denunciatory rhetoric is particularly unwelcome here, since it's the opposite extreme of curious conversation. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
burfog 6y ago
That reaction is an unfortunate part of modern European culture, and I'm sorry to say that the USA encouraged it after World War II. I say "unfortunate" because it takes away the natural urge for self-preservation and will ultimately lead to the demise of European culture. Culture dies if it is not defended.
- brmgb 6y ago
  There is no such thing as a "European culture". The European Union is a loosely bound groups of countries with different languages and cultures tied together by varying degrees of relationship and exchanges throughout their histories. Local cultures in European countries seem to be doing fine.
- rclayton 6y ago
  There’s not really a European identity like American’s have. You can live in Texas or Idaho, but consider yourself American. I’ve never met a Spaniard, German, or Englishmen consider themselves European first, and their nationality second.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. Denunciatory rhetoric is particularly unwelcome here, since it's the opposite extreme of curious conversation. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
The US is a superpower, and uses the military to create mostly stable political structures around the world that benefit the US. The oceans are patrolled around the world, and the nuclear arsenals facilitate mutual assured destruction, which is the only stable nuclear outcome in a world with enough nukes to destroy the planet. This military is an all-volunteer force. This wasn't always the case, but we found out in the 70's that requiring people to join can get extremely contentious if the reasoning for a conflict isn't absolutely clear to the layman. This means there has to be massive recruitment drives to get the people required for the large military. Early recruitment ensures indoctrination, which isn't evil, it just means instilling certain norms and cultures into someone so that they can cooporate and do their job in an environment that humans didn't evolve in.
- sleavey 6y ago
  Why not pay them more instead of indoctrinating them?
  - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
    Because then you'd end up with a bunch of mercenaries with no loyalty to country. That's risky.
pandaman 6y ago
As an immigrant from Europe, I see nothing wrong with patriotism. I also suspect that reminding the fans that they are citizens of one nation might be playing into the lack of pre/post game fights, quite common in Europe. Tbqh, there are still riots after some games in the US but they are far from organized beat downs of the opposing team fans. > It's paid for by the military and not some spontaneous display of love for the country Has the military really paid the audience here? https://youtu.be/dll-gKgtBAM?t=108 https://youtu.be/dll-gKgtBAM?t=108 There are dozens of such videos on Youtube, all the military-paid crowds singing the anthem.
rclayton 6y ago
First, the pageantry in most sports is not paid primarily by the military. It’s true that military will lend a color guard (those are the service members holding the flag), and will often sponsor sports, but that tends to be only at televised games. The tradition of honoring the flag and local service members is common throughout the country down to grade school events. The overt acts of patriotism and congratulatory acknowledgements of soldiers has certainly been ratcheted up over the last 40 years, but I think you can contribute that to guilt over how services members were treated during and shortly after the Vietnam War. I would liken it to “asking forgiveness”, which in some respects is shallow given that those that are most patriotic are likely to vote for politicians that will send the military into more needless wars. My point is, the nature of our patriotism is complex and nuanced. You can be disgusted by it, but understand that there is a history behind it.
- bryanlarsen 6y ago
  The military spent $80 million sponsoring sports events in 2012. That's a lot more than a color guard.
  - rclayton 6y ago
    Think of a single Super Bowl ad. It’s not that much if you think about recurring TV spots.
dang 6y ago
Please don't post nationalistic flamebait to HN. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23887370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23887370.
- sleavey 6y ago
  Fair enough, that was out of line, I apologise.

Waterfall 6y ago

>It seems to me like the whole thing is a choreographed process to show impressionable youngsters who lack self respect that they will be respected by society if they wage war on its behalf. We all had to do the pledge of allegiance in high school every day. You may see that as an adult, but after doing it for over a decade I was just saying we-puppet instead of republic and never understood what it meant or cared. It was just a habit, like saying death to america or something.

sleavey 6y ago
Does the pledge of allegiance in school every day still happen? I always figured that was some sort of Cold War thing.
- Waterfall 6y ago
  No idea, I think it still does. I doubt kids are being indoctrinated by it, its a ritual like lighting incense, we remember the ritual but not why or the context. Only now when people complain about it do I realize it had no effect on my patriotism. I didn't learn what a republic was for most of the years. What does one nation under god mean? No idea still.
- Balgair 6y ago
  Depends on school, district, grade level, etc. If I walked into any school in the country and saw it not/occurring, I would not be surprised or perturbed at all. It's just kinda part of life. Think how Japan does calisthenics before work/school every morning. Not everyone does it, but enough do that it's kinda just part of Japan.
fit2rule 6y ago
It certainly seems to have set you up for a life of unthinking servitude to the state and its criminal military...
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. Denunciatory rhetoric is particularly unwelcome here, since it's the opposite extreme of curious conversation. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

burfog 6y ago

That reaction is an unfortunate part of modern European culture, and I'm sorry to say that the USA encouraged it after World War II. I say "unfortunate" because it takes away the natural urge for self-preservation and will ultimately lead to the demise of European culture. Culture dies if it is not defended.

brmgb 6y ago
There is no such thing as a "European culture". The European Union is a loosely bound groups of countries with different languages and cultures tied together by varying degrees of relationship and exchanges throughout their histories. Local cultures in European countries seem to be doing fine.
rclayton 6y ago
There’s not really a European identity like American’s have. You can live in Texas or Idaho, but consider yourself American. I’ve never met a Spaniard, German, or Englishmen consider themselves European first, and their nationality second.
dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. Denunciatory rhetoric is particularly unwelcome here, since it's the opposite extreme of curious conversation. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago

The US is a superpower, and uses the military to create mostly stable political structures around the world that benefit the US. The oceans are patrolled around the world, and the nuclear arsenals facilitate mutual assured destruction, which is the only stable nuclear outcome in a world with enough nukes to destroy the planet. This military is an all-volunteer force. This wasn't always the case, but we found out in the 70's that requiring people to join can get extremely contentious if the reasoning for a conflict isn't absolutely clear to the layman. This means there has to be massive recruitment drives to get the people required for the large military. Early recruitment ensures indoctrination, which isn't evil, it just means instilling certain norms and cultures into someone so that they can cooporate and do their job in an environment that humans didn't evolve in.

sleavey 6y ago
Why not pay them more instead of indoctrinating them?
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  Because then you'd end up with a bunch of mercenaries with no loyalty to country. That's risky.

pandaman 6y ago

As an immigrant from Europe, I see nothing wrong with patriotism. I also suspect that reminding the fans that they are citizens of one nation might be playing into the lack of pre/post game fights, quite common in Europe. Tbqh, there are still riots after some games in the US but they are far from organized beat downs of the opposing team fans. > It's paid for by the military and not some spontaneous display of love for the country Has the military really paid the audience here? https://youtu.be/dll-gKgtBAM?t=108 https://youtu.be/dll-gKgtBAM?t=108 There are dozens of such videos on Youtube, all the military-paid crowds singing the anthem.

rclayton 6y ago

First, the pageantry in most sports is not paid primarily by the military. It’s true that military will lend a color guard (those are the service members holding the flag), and will often sponsor sports, but that tends to be only at televised games. The tradition of honoring the flag and local service members is common throughout the country down to grade school events. The overt acts of patriotism and congratulatory acknowledgements of soldiers has certainly been ratcheted up over the last 40 years, but I think you can contribute that to guilt over how services members were treated during and shortly after the Vietnam War. I would liken it to “asking forgiveness”, which in some respects is shallow given that those that are most patriotic are likely to vote for politicians that will send the military into more needless wars. My point is, the nature of our patriotism is complex and nuanced. You can be disgusted by it, but understand that there is a history behind it.

bryanlarsen 6y ago
The military spent $80 million sponsoring sports events in 2012. That's a lot more than a color guard.
- rclayton 6y ago
  Think of a single Super Bowl ad. It’s not that much if you think about recurring TV spots.

dang 6y ago

Please don't post nationalistic flamebait to HN. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23887370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23887370.

sleavey 6y ago
Fair enough, that was out of line, I apologise.