6 ms·

Spies in the Xerox Machine (1997)

68 points by myrandomcomment 6y ago

acqq 6y ago
Context: It’s published there as of 1997 but it’s about CIA spying technology used in 1963, 57 years ago!
- elliekelly 6y ago
  I recently watched Enemy of the State which came out in 1999 and the level of technology and spying was really surprising to me. I wonder how many people at the time thought the government’s ability was overstated for the movie. Also kind of crazy they were using “terrorism” as a guise for invading our privacy even before 9/11.
  - acqq 6y ago
    The Hollywood films almost by rule distort the real details, but some scripts do manage to pass the general idea. Never trust the Hollywood details but if you are interested in any topic, search the books (or the news articles) that did the research based on the primary sources. If you're interested in the history of older "spying" technology (as in NSA) see the books of James Bamford. Or, more recently, search for coverage of what is known due to Snowden. Some details emerge much later, e.g. about the quality of the pictures achievable from the satellites in sixties (i.e. more than 50 years ago): https://www.wired.com/2014/04/lost-lunar-photos-recovered-by-great-feats-of-hackerdom-developed-at-a-mcdonalds/ https://www.wired.com/2014/04/lost-lunar-photos-recovered-by... For CIA topics there are also some very good researched books. I'd say, the truth is much more fascinating than the movies.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    9/11 was not the first terrorist attack against the United States. It wasn’t even the first terrorist attack on the WTC.
  - mjevans 6y ago
    Also a good film, Sneakers from the early 90s. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105435/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105435/
  - Miraste 6y ago
    Enemy of the State was overstated at the time. It resembles 21st century spying programs so closely because the US government used the movie as a blueprint to develop those programs: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01792-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01792-5
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
brohee 6y ago
Printers are still a cybersecurity issue, it's incredible how often we still see printers on the same LAN as workstation given the horrible state of their security, and that random people are expected to come to "fix" them regularly...
TomMasz 6y ago
I worked at Xerox for over 20 years and never heard this story. Not surprising, though, there were lots of little groups working on things they never spoke of.
- GnarfGnarf 6y ago
  I also worked at Xerox. They were good at keeping their employees in the dark. Xerox believed in keeping as much information secret as possible, even from customers who needed (and were entitled to) technical information about the equipment they leased at exorbitant cost, like the 9700 laser printer (120 pages/min, two-sided in 1979). They did such a great job of focusing on copiers, that they blew their lead in the major technologies of the century: GUI, mouse, laser printing, LAN. Every new hire gets a copy of "The billions nobody wanted", the story of Chester Carlson, his invention of xerography, and how many companies turned him down. It's ironic that they repeated the same mistakes.
hedora 6y ago
Now xerox machines store everything they copy to disk and listen on multiple open network ports. I bet some phone home for updates by default. I wonder if they’re all bugged these days.
vuln 6y ago
If printer security interests you or you want to do some testing on your own devices. Check out PRET[0]. [0]Printer Exploitation Toolkit - The tool that made dumpster diving obsolete. https://github.com/RUB-NDS/PRET https://github.com/RUB-NDS/PRET http://hacking-printers.net/wiki/index.php/Printer_Security_Testing_Cheat_Sheet http://hacking-printers.net/wiki/index.php/Printer_Security_...
- drewg123 6y ago
  I wonder if some good samaritan could use this to make a canned solution to automagically turn off every HP "DIRECT" wifi that's unused 99.99% of the time and pollutes the wifi spectrum in any residential setting.
throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
https://www.instructables.com/id/Yellow-Dots-of-Mystery-Is-Your-Printer-Spying-on-/ https://www.instructables.com/id/Yellow-Dots-of-Mystery-Is-Y... "Most color laser printers and color copiers are designed to print invisible tracking codes across every single printed page of their output. These codes reveal which machine produced a document and, in some cases, when the document was printed or copied." FYI Edit: List of Printers Which Do or Do Not Display Tracking Dots https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-display-tracking-dots https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-d... I'm going to have a close look at my monochrome laser printer output, just in case.
- vuln 6y ago
  This is exactly how they were able to figure out the NSA’s Reality Winner leaked sensitive data. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/how-a-few-yellow-dots-burned-the-intercepts-nsa-leaker/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/how-a...
- tenebrisalietum 6y ago
  Always wondered if this was defeated by ensuring the entire page uses maximum yellow color edge-to-edge with 0 margin. The background wouold have to be full saturation yellow, and your text would have to be full saturation green or orange to ensure yellow is printed where text or monochrome images is printed (unless it's impossible to detect yellow dots mixed with black ink).
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    Not good enough. It might print a pattern of white pixels too. You need a yellow random-halftoned background. I would not be surprised to learn that this also is defeated by some kind of FFT scheme used just for such images. There is plenty of room for code of practically unlimited sophistication. Got to figure anything you print is compromised, which might be an intended point.
- sbierwagen 6y ago
  Monochrome laser output will also be fingerprinted by the uneven toner pattern from wear on the drum and the toner transfer roller.
rixrax 6y ago
Reminds me of a guy who hacked into Xerox machine (could have been Canon etc. really, can’t remember anymore) they used to print exam questions in computer sciences faculty (~1995). And who then had a short but lucrative run of selling those questions to other students. He obviously got ratted out rather quickly and got expelled from college.
client4 6y ago
I started the network forensics security contest at DEFCON (separate from the wall of sheep contest that I believe is still running) and one of my favorite challenges was recovering printer traffic. The contest was a race to see who could finish X number of challenges first with each round getting harder. The last puzzle was a TCP dump of MiTM’d printer traffic. I intended for them to carve out the document data and feed it into Gutenprint, but in the name of speed they speed over to Fry’s, shoved a piece of promo paper into a printer and powered it on, then replayed the TCP traffic to the printer. Probably one of my favorite solutions. About an hour later they also did it via Gutenprint just to show they could.
dang 6y ago
There have been other HN threads about this story, perhaps with different articles as the submission. I can't find them though. Anybody?
- computator 6y ago
  I did a whole bunch of HN searches and couldn't find a previous submission. I did find a few people mentioning it in comments to other stories. Perhaps you're thinking of the similar incident in which the Soviets bugged the American embassy’s typewriters[1]? By the way, the earliest original reporting of the story I found is from Popular Science[2], Jan. 1997, "Spies in the Xerox Machine", page 70. (The Popular Science article has the same bogus patent number I mentioned in another comment.) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21998774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21998774 [2] https://books.google.ca/books?id=KIEIX2X-na8C&pg=PA70 https://books.google.ca/books?id=KIEIX2X-na8C&pg=PA70
  - dang 6y ago
    Thanks for looking! You may be right but I have the feeling of two separate memories, one about the more famous typewriter story, and one about this Xerox thing. Oh well.
pjmlp 6y ago
As advice for everyone mentioning smart printers, many aren't aware that modern laser printers have their own version of applets, either with their own Java dialect, or some other form of proprietary language/native SDK. They are proper computers, with everything that a CPU with network connection might be capable of.
acruns 6y ago
When will this happen to keyboards?
- mauvehaus 6y ago
  About fifty years ago. The Soviets did it to the US: https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/ https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21947924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21947924
computator 6y ago
> This drawing is from patent 3,855,983, issued to Zopppoth[sic] in 1967 for a miniature surveillance camera. Trying to look up that patent number[1] finds something completely unrelated: A magnetic sensor device in the ignition system for an internal combustion engine, awarded to Robert J. Valek at Motorola, Inc. Even a search of the inventor's last name[2] finds nothing by the last name of Zoppoth or Zopppoth (with 3 p's as shown in the caption). I'm guessing that either there was a typo in the article, or that the Xerox patent was never issued and the number was reused by someone else (can that happen?), or that secret U.S. patents have a different numbering system that duplicates real U.S. patent numbers. [1] http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=3,855,983.PN.&OS=PN/3,855,983&RS=PN/3,855,983 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=H... [2] http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=Zoppoth&FIELD1=INNM&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=PTXT http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...
- zenexer 6y ago
  The article calls it a “secret patent,” so I wouldn’t be surprised if they got the number wrong—assuming there even is a number.
29athrowaway 6y ago
Spies in your printers and copiers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code Spies in your screen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpNP9b3aIfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpNP9b3aIfY Spies in your CPU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine
abdulhaq 6y ago
Any person or company using US hardware/software should understand that it may have been tainted at the request of the US state, and that for the manufacturer/provider of the hardware/software to disclose said tainting is also illegal.
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  I’d be very interested to see a list of countries that didn’t have equivalent powers. What vendors and supply chains do you imagine are immune from this problem?
sbierwagen 6y ago
Somewhat related, most modern paper currency has a pattern of rings on it that color photocopies will read, and refuse to copy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation
myrandomcomment 6y ago
Here is another 2 stories on it. Not much there. https://newshimalaya.com/2020/07/19/spies-within-the-xerox-machine/ https://newshimalaya.com/2020/07/19/spies-within-the-xerox-m... https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/12592/7-ingenious-hidden-spy-cameras https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/12592/7-ingenious-hidden... I also remember reading about this in a book on the history of the CIA but I cannot seem to find its title right now. If you are interested in some stories on spy satellites this is a great book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/887319.Deep_Black https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/887319.Deep_Black And if you want to read about the British: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Defence_of_the_Realm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Defence_of_the_Realm I had family in this "line of business" in the 1960s in the USA. I asked if this was a true story, the answer was just a smile.
sandworm101 6y ago
>>Next, they installed a camera in a machine at the main Xerox office in Webster. "When we developed the pictures, we found recipes and copies of music and cartoons and jokes and all kinds of things," Zoppoth says. So ... the illegally spied on US citizens in order to test their spycraft. Translate this into today's tech. It would be like a CIA spook installing some code on a US website as a trial run before installing it on FSB.com. Did they have a camera in the photocopier during the office Christmas party? This is why any government actor in position to spy on anyone needs regulation and oversight. >> Judging by the number of parts ordered from Xerox, Zoppoth believes that spy cameras may have been installed in photocopiers all over the world, to keep an eye on U.S. allies as well as enemies. And today we know how that goes.
- hoistbypetard 6y ago
  > So ... the illegally spied on US citizens in order to test their spycraft. Xerox employees installed the rig on a copier at the Xerox workplace to test the camera they invented, and Xerox employees looked at the photos of the documents. This was before they turned the camera over to the "CIA spooks", who did not (according to the story) look at the documents in the US headquarters of Xerox. I agree 100% with your points about the need for regulation and oversight, but this is not the incident that carries those points.

acqq 6y ago

Context: It’s published there as of 1997 but it’s about CIA spying technology used in 1963, 57 years ago!

elliekelly 6y ago
I recently watched Enemy of the State which came out in 1999 and the level of technology and spying was really surprising to me. I wonder how many people at the time thought the government’s ability was overstated for the movie. Also kind of crazy they were using “terrorism” as a guise for invading our privacy even before 9/11.
- acqq 6y ago
  The Hollywood films almost by rule distort the real details, but some scripts do manage to pass the general idea. Never trust the Hollywood details but if you are interested in any topic, search the books (or the news articles) that did the research based on the primary sources. If you're interested in the history of older "spying" technology (as in NSA) see the books of James Bamford. Or, more recently, search for coverage of what is known due to Snowden. Some details emerge much later, e.g. about the quality of the pictures achievable from the satellites in sixties (i.e. more than 50 years ago): https://www.wired.com/2014/04/lost-lunar-photos-recovered-by-great-feats-of-hackerdom-developed-at-a-mcdonalds/ https://www.wired.com/2014/04/lost-lunar-photos-recovered-by... For CIA topics there are also some very good researched books. I'd say, the truth is much more fascinating than the movies.
- mulmen 6y ago
  9/11 was not the first terrorist attack against the United States. It wasn’t even the first terrorist attack on the WTC.
- mjevans 6y ago
  Also a good film, Sneakers from the early 90s. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105435/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105435/
- Miraste 6y ago
  Enemy of the State was overstated at the time. It resembles 21st century spying programs so closely because the US government used the movie as a blueprint to develop those programs: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01792-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01792-5

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

brohee 6y ago

Printers are still a cybersecurity issue, it's incredible how often we still see printers on the same LAN as workstation given the horrible state of their security, and that random people are expected to come to "fix" them regularly...

TomMasz 6y ago

I worked at Xerox for over 20 years and never heard this story. Not surprising, though, there were lots of little groups working on things they never spoke of.

GnarfGnarf 6y ago
I also worked at Xerox. They were good at keeping their employees in the dark. Xerox believed in keeping as much information secret as possible, even from customers who needed (and were entitled to) technical information about the equipment they leased at exorbitant cost, like the 9700 laser printer (120 pages/min, two-sided in 1979). They did such a great job of focusing on copiers, that they blew their lead in the major technologies of the century: GUI, mouse, laser printing, LAN. Every new hire gets a copy of "The billions nobody wanted", the story of Chester Carlson, his invention of xerography, and how many companies turned him down. It's ironic that they repeated the same mistakes.

hedora 6y ago

Now xerox machines store everything they copy to disk and listen on multiple open network ports. I bet some phone home for updates by default. I wonder if they’re all bugged these days.

vuln 6y ago

If printer security interests you or you want to do some testing on your own devices. Check out PRET[0]. [0]Printer Exploitation Toolkit - The tool that made dumpster diving obsolete. https://github.com/RUB-NDS/PRET https://github.com/RUB-NDS/PRET http://hacking-printers.net/wiki/index.php/Printer_Security_Testing_Cheat_Sheet http://hacking-printers.net/wiki/index.php/Printer_Security_...

drewg123 6y ago
I wonder if some good samaritan could use this to make a canned solution to automagically turn off every HP "DIRECT" wifi that's unused 99.99% of the time and pollutes the wifi spectrum in any residential setting.

throwaway_pdp09 6y ago

https://www.instructables.com/id/Yellow-Dots-of-Mystery-Is-Your-Printer-Spying-on-/ https://www.instructables.com/id/Yellow-Dots-of-Mystery-Is-Y... "Most color laser printers and color copiers are designed to print invisible tracking codes across every single printed page of their output. These codes reveal which machine produced a document and, in some cases, when the document was printed or copied." FYI Edit: List of Printers Which Do or Do Not Display Tracking Dots https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-display-tracking-dots https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-d... I'm going to have a close look at my monochrome laser printer output, just in case.

vuln 6y ago
This is exactly how they were able to figure out the NSA’s Reality Winner leaked sensitive data. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/how-a-few-yellow-dots-burned-the-intercepts-nsa-leaker/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/how-a...
tenebrisalietum 6y ago
Always wondered if this was defeated by ensuring the entire page uses maximum yellow color edge-to-edge with 0 margin. The background wouold have to be full saturation yellow, and your text would have to be full saturation green or orange to ensure yellow is printed where text or monochrome images is printed (unless it's impossible to detect yellow dots mixed with black ink).
- ncmncm 6y ago
  Not good enough. It might print a pattern of white pixels too. You need a yellow random-halftoned background. I would not be surprised to learn that this also is defeated by some kind of FFT scheme used just for such images. There is plenty of room for code of practically unlimited sophistication. Got to figure anything you print is compromised, which might be an intended point.
sbierwagen 6y ago
Monochrome laser output will also be fingerprinted by the uneven toner pattern from wear on the drum and the toner transfer roller.

rixrax 6y ago

Reminds me of a guy who hacked into Xerox machine (could have been Canon etc. really, can’t remember anymore) they used to print exam questions in computer sciences faculty (~1995). And who then had a short but lucrative run of selling those questions to other students. He obviously got ratted out rather quickly and got expelled from college.

client4 6y ago

I started the network forensics security contest at DEFCON (separate from the wall of sheep contest that I believe is still running) and one of my favorite challenges was recovering printer traffic. The contest was a race to see who could finish X number of challenges first with each round getting harder. The last puzzle was a TCP dump of MiTM’d printer traffic. I intended for them to carve out the document data and feed it into Gutenprint, but in the name of speed they speed over to Fry’s, shoved a piece of promo paper into a printer and powered it on, then replayed the TCP traffic to the printer. Probably one of my favorite solutions. About an hour later they also did it via Gutenprint just to show they could.

dang 6y ago

There have been other HN threads about this story, perhaps with different articles as the submission. I can't find them though. Anybody?

computator 6y ago
I did a whole bunch of HN searches and couldn't find a previous submission. I did find a few people mentioning it in comments to other stories. Perhaps you're thinking of the similar incident in which the Soviets bugged the American embassy’s typewriters[1]? By the way, the earliest original reporting of the story I found is from Popular Science[2], Jan. 1997, "Spies in the Xerox Machine", page 70. (The Popular Science article has the same bogus patent number I mentioned in another comment.) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21998774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21998774 [2] https://books.google.ca/books?id=KIEIX2X-na8C&pg=PA70 https://books.google.ca/books?id=KIEIX2X-na8C&pg=PA70
- dang 6y ago
  Thanks for looking! You may be right but I have the feeling of two separate memories, one about the more famous typewriter story, and one about this Xerox thing. Oh well.

pjmlp 6y ago

As advice for everyone mentioning smart printers, many aren't aware that modern laser printers have their own version of applets, either with their own Java dialect, or some other form of proprietary language/native SDK. They are proper computers, with everything that a CPU with network connection might be capable of.

acruns 6y ago

When will this happen to keyboards?

mauvehaus 6y ago
About fifty years ago. The Soviets did it to the US: https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/ https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21947924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21947924

computator 6y ago

> This drawing is from patent 3,855,983, issued to Zopppoth[sic] in 1967 for a miniature surveillance camera. Trying to look up that patent number[1] finds something completely unrelated: A magnetic sensor device in the ignition system for an internal combustion engine, awarded to Robert J. Valek at Motorola, Inc. Even a search of the inventor's last name[2] finds nothing by the last name of Zoppoth or Zopppoth (with 3 p's as shown in the caption). I'm guessing that either there was a typo in the article, or that the Xerox patent was never issued and the number was reused by someone else (can that happen?), or that secret U.S. patents have a different numbering system that duplicates real U.S. patent numbers. [1] http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=3,855,983.PN.&OS=PN/3,855,983&RS=PN/3,855,983 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=H... [2] http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=Zoppoth&FIELD1=INNM&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=PTXT http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...

zenexer 6y ago
The article calls it a “secret patent,” so I wouldn’t be surprised if they got the number wrong—assuming there even is a number.

29athrowaway 6y ago

Spies in your printers and copiers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code Spies in your screen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpNP9b3aIfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpNP9b3aIfY Spies in your CPU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine

abdulhaq 6y ago

Any person or company using US hardware/software should understand that it may have been tainted at the request of the US state, and that for the manufacturer/provider of the hardware/software to disclose said tainting is also illegal.

AmericanChopper 6y ago
I’d be very interested to see a list of countries that didn’t have equivalent powers. What vendors and supply chains do you imagine are immune from this problem?

sbierwagen 6y ago

Somewhat related, most modern paper currency has a pattern of rings on it that color photocopies will read, and refuse to copy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EURion_constellation

myrandomcomment 6y ago

Here is another 2 stories on it. Not much there. https://newshimalaya.com/2020/07/19/spies-within-the-xerox-machine/ https://newshimalaya.com/2020/07/19/spies-within-the-xerox-m... https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/12592/7-ingenious-hidden-spy-cameras https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/12592/7-ingenious-hidden... I also remember reading about this in a book on the history of the CIA but I cannot seem to find its title right now. If you are interested in some stories on spy satellites this is a great book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/887319.Deep_Black https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/887319.Deep_Black And if you want to read about the British: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Defence_of_the_Realm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Defence_of_the_Realm I had family in this "line of business" in the 1960s in the USA. I asked if this was a true story, the answer was just a smile.

sandworm101 6y ago

>>Next, they installed a camera in a machine at the main Xerox office in Webster. "When we developed the pictures, we found recipes and copies of music and cartoons and jokes and all kinds of things," Zoppoth says. So ... the illegally spied on US citizens in order to test their spycraft. Translate this into today's tech. It would be like a CIA spook installing some code on a US website as a trial run before installing it on FSB.com. Did they have a camera in the photocopier during the office Christmas party? This is why any government actor in position to spy on anyone needs regulation and oversight. >> Judging by the number of parts ordered from Xerox, Zoppoth believes that spy cameras may have been installed in photocopiers all over the world, to keep an eye on U.S. allies as well as enemies. And today we know how that goes.

hoistbypetard 6y ago
> So ... the illegally spied on US citizens in order to test their spycraft. Xerox employees installed the rig on a copier at the Xerox workplace to test the camera they invented, and Xerox employees looked at the photos of the documents. This was before they turned the camera over to the "CIA spooks", who did not (according to the story) look at the documents in the US headquarters of Xerox. I agree 100% with your points about the need for regulation and oversight, but this is not the incident that carries those points.