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My second link cited 20 studies, 4 court cases and 8 state-wide or federal investigations. > Also 99.9% of people already have IDs Citation needed. https://w

My second link cited 20 studies, 4 court cases and 8 state-wide or federal investigations. > Also 99.9% of people already have IDs Citation needed. https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a... I find it odd that you accuse me of conspiracy theory as you're the one alleging a conspiracy without being able to provide any evidence that one exists. Before you re-cite your 1,071 instances in reply, note that in every one of my comments I said widespread fraud. I never argued that incidental fraud does not occur

manigandham 6y ago
I'm saying fraud is unknown. Your claim is that there is none, but there is no way to prove a negative and there has been no serious confirmation at scale to conclude otherwise. Your links are limited to voter ID but there are more types of fraud and, as I explained before, they're all the same as far as needing confirmation to be able to measure. Instant dismissal without study is the problem, and just as conspiratorial as saying it's rampant. I simply want the truth through evidence. As far as IDs, they're necessary for: opening a bank account, cashing a check, driving a car, buying a car, buying a house, signing a lease, having employment, buying any insurance, using any form of credit, going to school, paying for utilities, receiving welfare, food stamps or any public benefits. Please explain the overlap of people who have never done any of these things, don't have any ID, don't have any legal documentation, and are eligible to vote. Your 2nd link describes someone who has 2 IDs already, and has failed to get a new one after it expired. There will always be anecdotes of such paperwork mishaps but this doesn't show that there's a structural problem (he refuses to go to court to fix records even though fees can be waived easily). The idea that a certain race or group of people are incapable of attaining IDs like everyone else is a prime example of the bigotry of soft expectations.
- coolgeek 6y ago
  We agree that the degree of fraud is unknown. Where we disagree is on your insistence that the possibility that it may happen is worth suppressing the vote of the "11% of U.S. citizens – or more than 21 million Americans – [who] do not have government-issued photo identification." You have presented no evidence - at all - that it is a widespread problem, that it is a pervasive problem. I, on the other hand, have cited dozens of studies and government investigations - many of which were conducted by supporters of voter ID requirements - that showed vanishingly small amounts of fraud. You have also cited made-up statistics (99.9%) and numbers (1,071 fraudulent votes) that sound scary, but end up being insignificant in terms of actually impacting elections. Unless you can provide evidence of widespread fraud changing a state-level or federal election - which I've asked for since my very first comment - I'm no longer willing to discuss this with you.
  - deleted 6y ago
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  - manigandham 6y ago
    We don't agree. I'm saying it's unknown - which means I don't know whether it's zero or widespread. That's the point. Again, it's impossible to measure without mass confirmation and that has never been done. Where else do you expect the evidence to come from? You however claim that there is none. A lack of evidence from a lack of measurement does not mean your narrative must be true. I'm asking questions seeking the truth. You are blindly following a political narrative while dismissing any questioning. You cited a few articles that only focus on voter ID which isn't the only type of fraud (remember the 4 year investigation into Russian interference?). Also that 11% stat is unsourced and just a quote in an article which discusses people who already had IDs and failed to keep them updated. It's not voter suppression if everyone has to do it. Do you think that having an ID for work or to drive is suppressing rights as well? Can you answer the question I posed earlier about the overlap of people participating in society and but don't have ID? If it's such a problem then the answer should be easy.

manigandham 6y ago

I'm saying fraud is unknown. Your claim is that there is none, but there is no way to prove a negative and there has been no serious confirmation at scale to conclude otherwise. Your links are limited to voter ID but there are more types of fraud and, as I explained before, they're all the same as far as needing confirmation to be able to measure. Instant dismissal without study is the problem, and just as conspiratorial as saying it's rampant. I simply want the truth through evidence. As far as IDs, they're necessary for: opening a bank account, cashing a check, driving a car, buying a car, buying a house, signing a lease, having employment, buying any insurance, using any form of credit, going to school, paying for utilities, receiving welfare, food stamps or any public benefits. Please explain the overlap of people who have never done any of these things, don't have any ID, don't have any legal documentation, and are eligible to vote. Your 2nd link describes someone who has 2 IDs already, and has failed to get a new one after it expired. There will always be anecdotes of such paperwork mishaps but this doesn't show that there's a structural problem (he refuses to go to court to fix records even though fees can be waived easily). The idea that a certain race or group of people are incapable of attaining IDs like everyone else is a prime example of the bigotry of soft expectations.

coolgeek 6y ago
We agree that the degree of fraud is unknown. Where we disagree is on your insistence that the possibility that it may happen is worth suppressing the vote of the "11% of U.S. citizens – or more than 21 million Americans – [who] do not have government-issued photo identification." You have presented no evidence - at all - that it is a widespread problem, that it is a pervasive problem. I, on the other hand, have cited dozens of studies and government investigations - many of which were conducted by supporters of voter ID requirements - that showed vanishingly small amounts of fraud. You have also cited made-up statistics (99.9%) and numbers (1,071 fraudulent votes) that sound scary, but end up being insignificant in terms of actually impacting elections. Unless you can provide evidence of widespread fraud changing a state-level or federal election - which I've asked for since my very first comment - I'm no longer willing to discuss this with you.
- deleted 6y ago
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- manigandham 6y ago
  We don't agree. I'm saying it's unknown - which means I don't know whether it's zero or widespread. That's the point. Again, it's impossible to measure without mass confirmation and that has never been done. Where else do you expect the evidence to come from? You however claim that there is none. A lack of evidence from a lack of measurement does not mean your narrative must be true. I'm asking questions seeking the truth. You are blindly following a political narrative while dismissing any questioning. You cited a few articles that only focus on voter ID which isn't the only type of fraud (remember the 4 year investigation into Russian interference?). Also that 11% stat is unsourced and just a quote in an article which discusses people who already had IDs and failed to keep them updated. It's not voter suppression if everyone has to do it. Do you think that having an ID for work or to drive is suppressing rights as well? Can you answer the question I posed earlier about the overlap of people participating in society and but don't have ID? If it's such a problem then the answer should be easy.