3 ms·

I'm hopeful for multi-use plastics that can be sanitized. I own a gas mask (over the top) and a washable face mask, both obviously allow for multiple uses with

by bArray 6y ago

I'm hopeful for multi-use plastics that can be sanitized. I own a gas mask (over the top) and a washable face mask, both obviously allow for multiple uses with some cleaning and maintenance. Something that can survive being washed with hand soap for example should be more than good enough for most people in terms of sanitation.

eloisius 6y ago
What? We have multi-use plastics. Have you never seen plastic Coca-Cola cups? But who wants to work in a dish pit washing hundreds of dishes every day and splashing germy dish water all over themself right now? Furthermore, if you’ve seen how dishwashing works in your average pizza place, you probably wouldn’t want to put your lips on a multi-use plastic cup pandemic or not.
- jefftk 6y ago
  The way dishwashing works in your average pizza place: someone loads racks, and slides them into the dish machine. Inside the dish machine, recycled soapy water blasts them for maybe 40 seconds, and then they are sanitized with extremely hot fresh water for maybe 20 seconds. Then the operator opens the machine, slides out the tray, and puts them away. (Source: I've washed dishes in 5+ commercial kitchens, though not a pizza parlor. But I've seen these machines and setups in several pizza places.)
  - RhysU 6y ago
    Those dishes hurt to pick up right when they come out of the machine. Dishes in your home are gross in comparison.
    - killjoywashere 6y ago
      Source: I'm a pathologist who runs a clinical lab, including microbiology, and I work with my local public health authority. I was also the electrical officer on a ship and had to help troubleshoot the ship's dish machines. I don't know about the "recycled soapy water" bit. All the systems I've seen use fresh water on each use. The cost of dishwashing is trivia for a restaurant compared to the refrigeration systems, so I would be somewhat surprised if there was a collection tank, plumbing and valving to recirculate water from. That seems like it would occupy a lot of room and cost a pretty penny. Have you actually seen such a set-up? > Dishes in your home are gross in comparison Ah, yes and no. Hot soapy water is definitely effective. But the commercial systems are meant to sanitize, not clean. There are frequently things stuck to the dishes (lettuce comes to mind) that a) don't come off in water cycles, and b) may not get hot enough, long enough to kill everything to the deep surface of the lettuce, gunk, whatever. By comparison, the dishes at home may not get to as high a temperature but you personally have the opportunity to inspect the dish before you re-use it. In a restaurant, the food is prepped to plate or serving dish before it comes to you. In either case, I would anticipate most any swabs of the dishes would fail to grow on culture. In fact, in some commercial kitchens, like hospitals, we do environmental cultures. So this is a fairly known thing, at least as far as the design performance of the sanitization machines go. So, gross, stuck-on lettuce, yes. Sterile, yes. If your local deli isn't using the machine as intended, not much I can say about that.
      - jefftk 6y ago
        > I don't know about the "recycled soapy water" bit. All the systems I've seen use fresh water on each use. Here's an example of the kind of machine I'm talking about: https://www.hobartcorp.com/products/commercial-dishwashers/door-type/am-select-dishwasher https://www.hobartcorp.com/products/commercial-dishwashers/d... It has a tank at the bottom, for the wash water. As fresh water comes in for sanitizing, some of the wash water goes down the drain -- 3/4 gal/cycle, per the brochure. We would drain the tank at the end of each day, and fill fresh in the morning. > So, gross, stuck-on lettuce, yes. Sterile, yes. The rule we were taught was: when it comes out of the machine, if it looks clean, it is clean. Which is to say, if there was still lettuce or other things on a dish you needed to spray them off and run it through again (and do a better job spraying before loading).
    - pkaye 6y ago
      Its hard to get dish washer detergent with phosphates these day however its still available for commercial operations. The phosphates make the dishes much cleaner but can cause algae and other problems in the sewage systems. At home we don't use the dish washer much these days but it used to do a pretty crappy job until once I added a little bit of TSP (tri-sodium phosphate) to the detergent.
      - beerandt 6y ago
        Fryer boil out cleaner is the same phosphate-filled formula as the old phosphate dishwasher detergent. It's a bit more expensive, but you no longer need to buy a rinse agent.
    - Simulacra 6y ago
      Man and they are HOT too
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    I washed dishes professionally once. Literally once, I worked at a golf course (typically picking up golf balls). Something happened in the kitchen and they didn't have a dishwasher that night... so they switched me over to dishwashing. > Inside the dish machine, recycled soapy water blasts them for maybe 40 seconds, and then they are sanitized with extremely hot fresh water for maybe 20 seconds. These two steps were a pipeline in the setup. The recycled soapy water was one "station". You pull down on a lever, and it goes up a bit later. You slide the tray to the right, pull a 2nd lever (for the 2nd station) for the very hot fresh water. I don't know what temperature the "hot water" was, but by touch I'd describe it as "burning hot". Lots of steam, and the plates basically dried off by themselves in just minutes because it was so hot. --------- Honestly, commercial dishwashing systems are significantly superior to the home stuff. If anything, my time as a professional dishwasher (as limited as it was) taught me that commercial systems care far more about sanitation than home systems.
    - jefftk 6y ago
      > I don't know what temperature the "hot water" was, but by touch I'd describe it as "burning hot". 180F, generally.
    - beerandt 6y ago
      Ironically, home dishwashers suck because of onerous EPA manufacturing regulations. If they weren't so terrible, people probably wouldn't use as many disposables at home. On the other hand, washing things is always resource and energy intensive. Making dishwashers better would likely make it more environmentally friendly to use disposables than wash reusables.
  - eloisius 6y ago
    That is true in places that have an dish washing machine, which tends to be true of more upscale or commercial kitchens. In your typical pizza joint it's very likely that they just have some guy in the dish pit and it goes like this: 3 second scrub in the soapy water, dunk in the fresh water, dunk in the sanitizer water. Source: I delivered pizza at such a joint and my little brother was the dishwasher. When things got backed up I often helped him catch up.
- bArray 6y ago
  > What? We have multi-use plastics. I was talking in context of the coronavirus, specifically plastics that are used to avoid contact with the virus. Obviously they exist, I am being hopeful that they become used. > Furthermore, if you’ve seen how dishwashing works in your > average pizza place, you probably wouldn’t want to put > your lips on a multi-use plastic cup pandemic or not. Right, but most things people are single-using are not things that touch their lips. It's going to be masks, bags, gloves, etc. If designed correctly, these can easily be multi-use. In terms of cups, I actually quite like Germany's process of standardized glass bottles. I think glass in general is also easier to clean and worst case can be melted and re-formed.
petre 6y ago
There's also the micro plastics issue. Some plastics are prone to scrarching and becoming scuffy. Plus grease really likes to stick to plastics.

by bArray 6y ago

eloisius 6y ago

What? We have multi-use plastics. Have you never seen plastic Coca-Cola cups? But who wants to work in a dish pit washing hundreds of dishes every day and splashing germy dish water all over themself right now? Furthermore, if you’ve seen how dishwashing works in your average pizza place, you probably wouldn’t want to put your lips on a multi-use plastic cup pandemic or not.

jefftk 6y ago
The way dishwashing works in your average pizza place: someone loads racks, and slides them into the dish machine. Inside the dish machine, recycled soapy water blasts them for maybe 40 seconds, and then they are sanitized with extremely hot fresh water for maybe 20 seconds. Then the operator opens the machine, slides out the tray, and puts them away. (Source: I've washed dishes in 5+ commercial kitchens, though not a pizza parlor. But I've seen these machines and setups in several pizza places.)
- RhysU 6y ago
  Those dishes hurt to pick up right when they come out of the machine. Dishes in your home are gross in comparison.
  - killjoywashere 6y ago
    Source: I'm a pathologist who runs a clinical lab, including microbiology, and I work with my local public health authority. I was also the electrical officer on a ship and had to help troubleshoot the ship's dish machines. I don't know about the "recycled soapy water" bit. All the systems I've seen use fresh water on each use. The cost of dishwashing is trivia for a restaurant compared to the refrigeration systems, so I would be somewhat surprised if there was a collection tank, plumbing and valving to recirculate water from. That seems like it would occupy a lot of room and cost a pretty penny. Have you actually seen such a set-up? > Dishes in your home are gross in comparison Ah, yes and no. Hot soapy water is definitely effective. But the commercial systems are meant to sanitize, not clean. There are frequently things stuck to the dishes (lettuce comes to mind) that a) don't come off in water cycles, and b) may not get hot enough, long enough to kill everything to the deep surface of the lettuce, gunk, whatever. By comparison, the dishes at home may not get to as high a temperature but you personally have the opportunity to inspect the dish before you re-use it. In a restaurant, the food is prepped to plate or serving dish before it comes to you. In either case, I would anticipate most any swabs of the dishes would fail to grow on culture. In fact, in some commercial kitchens, like hospitals, we do environmental cultures. So this is a fairly known thing, at least as far as the design performance of the sanitization machines go. So, gross, stuck-on lettuce, yes. Sterile, yes. If your local deli isn't using the machine as intended, not much I can say about that.
    - jefftk 6y ago
      > I don't know about the "recycled soapy water" bit. All the systems I've seen use fresh water on each use. Here's an example of the kind of machine I'm talking about: https://www.hobartcorp.com/products/commercial-dishwashers/door-type/am-select-dishwasher https://www.hobartcorp.com/products/commercial-dishwashers/d... It has a tank at the bottom, for the wash water. As fresh water comes in for sanitizing, some of the wash water goes down the drain -- 3/4 gal/cycle, per the brochure. We would drain the tank at the end of each day, and fill fresh in the morning. > So, gross, stuck-on lettuce, yes. Sterile, yes. The rule we were taught was: when it comes out of the machine, if it looks clean, it is clean. Which is to say, if there was still lettuce or other things on a dish you needed to spray them off and run it through again (and do a better job spraying before loading).
  - pkaye 6y ago
    Its hard to get dish washer detergent with phosphates these day however its still available for commercial operations. The phosphates make the dishes much cleaner but can cause algae and other problems in the sewage systems. At home we don't use the dish washer much these days but it used to do a pretty crappy job until once I added a little bit of TSP (tri-sodium phosphate) to the detergent.
    - beerandt 6y ago
      Fryer boil out cleaner is the same phosphate-filled formula as the old phosphate dishwasher detergent. It's a bit more expensive, but you no longer need to buy a rinse agent.
  - Simulacra 6y ago
    Man and they are HOT too
- dragontamer 6y ago
  I washed dishes professionally once. Literally once, I worked at a golf course (typically picking up golf balls). Something happened in the kitchen and they didn't have a dishwasher that night... so they switched me over to dishwashing. > Inside the dish machine, recycled soapy water blasts them for maybe 40 seconds, and then they are sanitized with extremely hot fresh water for maybe 20 seconds. These two steps were a pipeline in the setup. The recycled soapy water was one "station". You pull down on a lever, and it goes up a bit later. You slide the tray to the right, pull a 2nd lever (for the 2nd station) for the very hot fresh water. I don't know what temperature the "hot water" was, but by touch I'd describe it as "burning hot". Lots of steam, and the plates basically dried off by themselves in just minutes because it was so hot. --------- Honestly, commercial dishwashing systems are significantly superior to the home stuff. If anything, my time as a professional dishwasher (as limited as it was) taught me that commercial systems care far more about sanitation than home systems.
  - jefftk 6y ago
    > I don't know what temperature the "hot water" was, but by touch I'd describe it as "burning hot". 180F, generally.
  - beerandt 6y ago
    Ironically, home dishwashers suck because of onerous EPA manufacturing regulations. If they weren't so terrible, people probably wouldn't use as many disposables at home. On the other hand, washing things is always resource and energy intensive. Making dishwashers better would likely make it more environmentally friendly to use disposables than wash reusables.
- eloisius 6y ago
  That is true in places that have an dish washing machine, which tends to be true of more upscale or commercial kitchens. In your typical pizza joint it's very likely that they just have some guy in the dish pit and it goes like this: 3 second scrub in the soapy water, dunk in the fresh water, dunk in the sanitizer water. Source: I delivered pizza at such a joint and my little brother was the dishwasher. When things got backed up I often helped him catch up.
bArray 6y ago
> What? We have multi-use plastics. I was talking in context of the coronavirus, specifically plastics that are used to avoid contact with the virus. Obviously they exist, I am being hopeful that they become used. > Furthermore, if you’ve seen how dishwashing works in your > average pizza place, you probably wouldn’t want to put > your lips on a multi-use plastic cup pandemic or not. Right, but most things people are single-using are not things that touch their lips. It's going to be masks, bags, gloves, etc. If designed correctly, these can easily be multi-use. In terms of cups, I actually quite like Germany's process of standardized glass bottles. I think glass in general is also easier to clean and worst case can be melted and re-formed.

petre 6y ago

There's also the micro plastics issue. Some plastics are prone to scrarching and becoming scuffy. Plus grease really likes to stick to plastics.