7 ms·

Nespresso's machines definitely occupied a cost niche, but were too troublingly wasteful for me. Fellow addicts looking to decapsule-- but not interested in buy

Nespresso's machines definitely occupied a cost niche, but were too troublingly wasteful for me. Fellow addicts looking to decapsule-- but not interested in buying a 2k machine which will be killed by scale in 1 year can check out Flair (https://www.flairespresso.com/ https://www.flairespresso.com/) It makes professional grade shots, has no unnecessary waste, and has nothing to really break.

6nf 6y ago
This looks nice and I bet with a little bit of experience you can make a great coffee. It's not as convenient as capsules though. The capsule machines just takes two seconds to pop in a capsule and once you press the button it's all automatic. This thing doesn't even boil the water for you.
- alpineidyll3 6y ago
  I find it makes better espresso than a 2k automatic machine. A typical electric kettle next to it does the trick, takes the same amount of time and is easy to fill. It absolutely is a lil messier and more work, but there's something to the ritual of it.
edgefield0 6y ago
You can buy a high quality nespresso machine for about $100. I agree the capsules are wasteful, but so are lots of other things, such as bottles and cans, cardboard boxes, ziplock bags, driving a car, and flying. What's especially wasteful about nespresso capsules? It seems like another version of straws that's easy to target but doesn't really address root problems with our consume until you drop mentality.
- julianz 6y ago
  But it's only going to make stale coffee, which tastes horrible. Count me out.
- PascLeRasc 6y ago
  Many of us also avoid using single-use plastics and driving too. Sure it's not a huge difference but it does add up.
ntsplnkv2 6y ago
The ones investing in 2k machines would not be using water that causes that kind of scaling, or they can easily have it descaled. To others, if you are not familiar with espresso, avoid manual espresso machines - even with consistent top quality semi-auto machines good espresso is not easy, let alone adding even more play into it with a lever machine. I recommend not getting a home espresso machine at all unless you are really into it. Moka pots, pour over, aeropress are all far far easier, much cheaper, and far less finicky. Save the espresso for a trip to your neighborhood cafe instead - they'll make it far better without the hassle.
- donut 6y ago
  I recall hearing of an Italian saying, something like this: Either get a mocha pot at home, or get a real espresso machine and open a coffee shop.
  - lultimouomo 6y ago
    I think this is much less true now than it was 10 years ago. On the positive side, capsule-based espresso machines do deliver consistent, good quality coffee at home, better than you would get with a consumer espresso machine using pre-ground coffee that you keep in a vat for a couple of weeks. On the negative side, I am often disappointed by the quality of espresso in (Italian) coffee shops. It used to be that the quality of coffee was paramount for a coffee shop, and a good barista either learned how to get good coffee quickly or went home; now it seems this is perceived as a much less important part of the trade, and you regularly get restaurant-quality (as in very mediocre) coffee in coffee shops. Not sure if Nespresso played a role in this too, as less people are walking to a shop to get their coffee.
    - Heliosmaster 6y ago
      (italian here) completely agree. It's not very easy to find a coffee shop where the espresso doesn't taste burnt. I have the feeling the baristas have good technique, but the machines don't get cleaned / serviced enough. Or maybe it's just me, trying more and more different coffee places around europe.
softwaredoug 6y ago
We use Nestles capsule recycling, which claims to compost grounds and recycle aluminum pods...
peteretep 6y ago
> but were too troublingly wasteful for me Were you unable to recycle your pods?
- maccard 6y ago
  Recycling should be a last resort, and it's a marketing effort by Nespresso to make them seem cleaner than they are. In reality, they sell small dose (5g) coffee in plastic lined aluminium, in non-recyclable coated cardboard. Despite their claims of how green they are, only 30% of their pods are recycled [0] [0] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-16/most-nespresso-coffee-pods-not-being-recycled/11708910 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-16/most-nespresso-coffee...
  - peteretep 6y ago
    This seems to be such a mean take as to almost feel disingenuous — the low recycling figure is down to consumers not returning pods. I do return pods, so presumably nearly 100% of the pods I use are recycled. Cardboard is biodegradeable. I’m unsure why you feel the need to point out the pods are plastic lined.
    - maccard 6y ago
      If customers aren't returning pods, what are they doing with them? Cardboard is biodegradable, but waxed cardboard is lined with plastic meaning it needs to be handled separately, and if your recycling center doesn't handle it, it goes in the trash where it doesn't biodegrade because it's coated in plastic. The reason the plastic lined pods are important is because it means you can't just chuck them in your household recycling, they have to be sent back to Nespresso. Anyone who doesn't send them back to Nespresso is throwing them in the trash, or throwing them in household recycling, where they're separated from and put in regular waste.
crispyambulance 6y ago
The best set-up for someone who likes espresso is simply a no-frills prosumer espresso machine, a separate good quality grinder, a few other minor things, and some training in dialing in your process. There exist machines that literally do everything including grinding the coffee, but these yield disappointing results. With regular descaling, backflushing, and sometimes repair or upgrades an espresso machine will easily last more than a decade.
berberous 6y ago
The Cafelat Robot is a similar manual espresso machine: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=11ZSXVZbQbA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=11ZSXVZbQbA
pandaman 6y ago
The main problem with home espresso is not the machine. Professional machines are expensive because they are specced to make shots in quick succession and also handle a lot of shots before requiring service, a machine for a couple shots per day and 5+ years life can be made for couple hundred bucks or less. The grind is the problem that has not been solved yet. You need uniform and adjustable grind size and there is no cheap way to make a mill for that. Entry level espresso grinders are starting with hand-cranked ones at $200+, a decent electric one will be at least $500 and the good one will be $1000+. Just the replacement burrs for mine are $250 and these are not some one-off hipster burrs, they are mass-produced for commercial machines. Making precise shapes out of hard steel is very expensive. So there are essentially two solutions for at home espresso-like drink: various pods (ESE is apparently from 70s and was designed for commercial use, I imagine very light one) and machines with a pressure valve on the exit from the portafilter (essentially all machines you can buy in department stores), those take pre-ground coffee and use the exit valve to create espresso-like "crema". It's not espresso because there is no noticeable pressure difference over and under the grounds and espresso needs the layer of coffee to provide enough resistance to get to 7-9 bars on top of it. I think some pod systems could be more like espresso, at least in principle.
- hocuspocus 6y ago
  I might buy a Niche at some point, but you can get a pretty decent grind with a $250 Baratza Virtuoso or Nuova Simonelli Grinta. I don't know how much coffee you grind, but unless you run a coffee shop, replacing burrs shouldn't really happen until after several decades.
  - pandaman 6y ago
    Yes, for home use you don't need to replace burrs often. However, you need a pair of burrs to make a grinder and the grinder cannot be cheaper than the burrs.
simonebrunozzi 6y ago
> killed by scale What does it mean? Also, can you tell us more about Flair? Very curious.
- mcyukon 6y ago
  Not the OP, but he means hard water full of minerals (Mostly calcium and magnesium)that accumulate and eventually clog the lines.
  - simonebrunozzi 6y ago
    Thanks for clarifying.
pibi 6y ago
Italian here: I'm a proud owner of a Kamira (https://en.espressokamira.net/ https://en.espressokamira.net/). Great taste, effortless, no waste, cheap. What else?
- wenc 6y ago
  Just curious, how is this different from a Bialetti apart from the design? I'm looking on the website and can't seem to find a description of how it produces pressure and how much. A real espresso machine produces 8-9 bars of pressure for extraction, and a Bialetti is about 2 bars, so it's not technically espresso.
  - pibi 6y ago
    Kamira works at 3 bars. It can make one or two espresso at the same time, but no more than that. The design is the opposite of a Bialetti's Moka, where the water is pouring into the coffee from the bottom. On a Kamira, the water is coming from the top, preserving the oils and the cream to being burnt. It's also very quick, you can have your cup of coffee within a couple dozen of seconds. Not very hot in this case, but still very tasteful.
- jiggunjer 6y ago
  It looks like a cup of coffee foam?

6nf 6y ago

This looks nice and I bet with a little bit of experience you can make a great coffee. It's not as convenient as capsules though. The capsule machines just takes two seconds to pop in a capsule and once you press the button it's all automatic. This thing doesn't even boil the water for you.

alpineidyll3 6y ago
I find it makes better espresso than a 2k automatic machine. A typical electric kettle next to it does the trick, takes the same amount of time and is easy to fill. It absolutely is a lil messier and more work, but there's something to the ritual of it.

edgefield0 6y ago

You can buy a high quality nespresso machine for about $100. I agree the capsules are wasteful, but so are lots of other things, such as bottles and cans, cardboard boxes, ziplock bags, driving a car, and flying. What's especially wasteful about nespresso capsules? It seems like another version of straws that's easy to target but doesn't really address root problems with our consume until you drop mentality.

julianz 6y ago
But it's only going to make stale coffee, which tastes horrible. Count me out.
PascLeRasc 6y ago
Many of us also avoid using single-use plastics and driving too. Sure it's not a huge difference but it does add up.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago

The ones investing in 2k machines would not be using water that causes that kind of scaling, or they can easily have it descaled. To others, if you are not familiar with espresso, avoid manual espresso machines - even with consistent top quality semi-auto machines good espresso is not easy, let alone adding even more play into it with a lever machine. I recommend not getting a home espresso machine at all unless you are really into it. Moka pots, pour over, aeropress are all far far easier, much cheaper, and far less finicky. Save the espresso for a trip to your neighborhood cafe instead - they'll make it far better without the hassle.

donut 6y ago
I recall hearing of an Italian saying, something like this: Either get a mocha pot at home, or get a real espresso machine and open a coffee shop.
- lultimouomo 6y ago
  I think this is much less true now than it was 10 years ago. On the positive side, capsule-based espresso machines do deliver consistent, good quality coffee at home, better than you would get with a consumer espresso machine using pre-ground coffee that you keep in a vat for a couple of weeks. On the negative side, I am often disappointed by the quality of espresso in (Italian) coffee shops. It used to be that the quality of coffee was paramount for a coffee shop, and a good barista either learned how to get good coffee quickly or went home; now it seems this is perceived as a much less important part of the trade, and you regularly get restaurant-quality (as in very mediocre) coffee in coffee shops. Not sure if Nespresso played a role in this too, as less people are walking to a shop to get their coffee.
  - Heliosmaster 6y ago
    (italian here) completely agree. It's not very easy to find a coffee shop where the espresso doesn't taste burnt. I have the feeling the baristas have good technique, but the machines don't get cleaned / serviced enough. Or maybe it's just me, trying more and more different coffee places around europe.

softwaredoug 6y ago

We use Nestles capsule recycling, which claims to compost grounds and recycle aluminum pods...

peteretep 6y ago

> but were too troublingly wasteful for me Were you unable to recycle your pods?

maccard 6y ago
Recycling should be a last resort, and it's a marketing effort by Nespresso to make them seem cleaner than they are. In reality, they sell small dose (5g) coffee in plastic lined aluminium, in non-recyclable coated cardboard. Despite their claims of how green they are, only 30% of their pods are recycled [0] [0] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-16/most-nespresso-coffee-pods-not-being-recycled/11708910 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-16/most-nespresso-coffee...
- peteretep 6y ago
  This seems to be such a mean take as to almost feel disingenuous — the low recycling figure is down to consumers not returning pods. I do return pods, so presumably nearly 100% of the pods I use are recycled. Cardboard is biodegradeable. I’m unsure why you feel the need to point out the pods are plastic lined.
  - maccard 6y ago
    If customers aren't returning pods, what are they doing with them? Cardboard is biodegradable, but waxed cardboard is lined with plastic meaning it needs to be handled separately, and if your recycling center doesn't handle it, it goes in the trash where it doesn't biodegrade because it's coated in plastic. The reason the plastic lined pods are important is because it means you can't just chuck them in your household recycling, they have to be sent back to Nespresso. Anyone who doesn't send them back to Nespresso is throwing them in the trash, or throwing them in household recycling, where they're separated from and put in regular waste.

crispyambulance 6y ago

The best set-up for someone who likes espresso is simply a no-frills prosumer espresso machine, a separate good quality grinder, a few other minor things, and some training in dialing in your process. There exist machines that literally do everything including grinding the coffee, but these yield disappointing results. With regular descaling, backflushing, and sometimes repair or upgrades an espresso machine will easily last more than a decade.

berberous 6y ago

The Cafelat Robot is a similar manual espresso machine: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=11ZSXVZbQbA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=11ZSXVZbQbA

pandaman 6y ago

The main problem with home espresso is not the machine. Professional machines are expensive because they are specced to make shots in quick succession and also handle a lot of shots before requiring service, a machine for a couple shots per day and 5+ years life can be made for couple hundred bucks or less. The grind is the problem that has not been solved yet. You need uniform and adjustable grind size and there is no cheap way to make a mill for that. Entry level espresso grinders are starting with hand-cranked ones at $200+, a decent electric one will be at least $500 and the good one will be $1000+. Just the replacement burrs for mine are $250 and these are not some one-off hipster burrs, they are mass-produced for commercial machines. Making precise shapes out of hard steel is very expensive. So there are essentially two solutions for at home espresso-like drink: various pods (ESE is apparently from 70s and was designed for commercial use, I imagine very light one) and machines with a pressure valve on the exit from the portafilter (essentially all machines you can buy in department stores), those take pre-ground coffee and use the exit valve to create espresso-like "crema". It's not espresso because there is no noticeable pressure difference over and under the grounds and espresso needs the layer of coffee to provide enough resistance to get to 7-9 bars on top of it. I think some pod systems could be more like espresso, at least in principle.

hocuspocus 6y ago
I might buy a Niche at some point, but you can get a pretty decent grind with a $250 Baratza Virtuoso or Nuova Simonelli Grinta. I don't know how much coffee you grind, but unless you run a coffee shop, replacing burrs shouldn't really happen until after several decades.
- pandaman 6y ago
  Yes, for home use you don't need to replace burrs often. However, you need a pair of burrs to make a grinder and the grinder cannot be cheaper than the burrs.

simonebrunozzi 6y ago

> killed by scale What does it mean? Also, can you tell us more about Flair? Very curious.

mcyukon 6y ago
Not the OP, but he means hard water full of minerals (Mostly calcium and magnesium)that accumulate and eventually clog the lines.
- simonebrunozzi 6y ago
  Thanks for clarifying.

pibi 6y ago

Italian here: I'm a proud owner of a Kamira (https://en.espressokamira.net/ https://en.espressokamira.net/). Great taste, effortless, no waste, cheap. What else?

wenc 6y ago
Just curious, how is this different from a Bialetti apart from the design? I'm looking on the website and can't seem to find a description of how it produces pressure and how much. A real espresso machine produces 8-9 bars of pressure for extraction, and a Bialetti is about 2 bars, so it's not technically espresso.
- pibi 6y ago
  Kamira works at 3 bars. It can make one or two espresso at the same time, but no more than that. The design is the opposite of a Bialetti's Moka, where the water is pouring into the coffee from the bottom. On a Kamira, the water is coming from the top, preserving the oils and the cream to being burnt. It's also very quick, you can have your cup of coffee within a couple dozen of seconds. Not very hot in this case, but still very tasteful.
jiggunjer 6y ago
It looks like a cup of coffee foam?