12 ms·

Windows on Raspberry

125 points by T-A 6y ago

BlahGod420 6y ago
Does anyone have more experience with Windows on IoT devices in general? I'm curious about this - it seems like it could be a real game changer in general for IoT. But if it is already available and not actually doing much game changing, I'd be curious to know why.
- grugagag 6y ago
  My opinion: I think it won't catch on as windows is too bloated and doesn't bring much advantage to the table. As a matter of fact i got a RPI just to have a standalone linux box.
  - 6c696e7578 6y ago
    > As a matter of fact i got a RPI just to have a standalone linux box. And that's the beauty of Linux, it runs from mini devices to very very heavy supercomputers. I hope one day Steam will be more prevalent on Linux. It's about time MS is squeezed out the same way they squeezed Netscape out.
    - skohan 6y ago
      Proton is an amazing project. I hope it will lead to more Linux Steam users, and consiquently more 1st party support, because I'm sure MS will do everything in their power to make Proton less effective and reliable than it is today over time.
- hristov 6y ago
  Because it is bloated. It would run well on iot if you could make your iot device as big and as computationally powerful as a laptop.
  - tracker1 6y ago
    It's not much better/worse than any modern linux desktop distribution... My biggest issues with the linux side usually come down to dealing with the one off issues that seem to popup on major updates... and never, ever try to use brand new hardware for you daily driver with linux unless you are prepared to deal with said frustrations.
- detaro 6y ago
  Embedded Windows has been a thing for a long time and has steadily become less and less relevant over the past decade or so, with many users slowly migrating away. It is more expensive and basically unsupported by Microsoft and hardware makers, while adding very little unique features. I've basically only encountered it in "We stop support for Windows" announcements, "Here's how to make migrating away from it a bit easier for your devs used to it" and "We need to migrate away from Windows, can you help?" You occasionally see Windows on stuff that runs full-size PCs "embedded" into a device, but then typically just normal Windows nowadays.
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    > Embedded Windows has been a thing for a long time Mostly in Windows CE palmtops, based on a miniaturized version of the actual Windows 9x interface. Not sure it's ever been a thing in real embedded workloads.
    - detaro 6y ago
      Enough embedded use that I wouldn't bet on the "mostly" in your statement. And there's been different Embedded lines after WinCE.
    - tracker1 6y ago
      Well, considering if it's an embedded/utility device with a screen (that isn't a phone) there's a greater than 50% chance it's running some form of windows, I wouldn't consider that statement true at all. -- edit below For examples, the displays at restaurants are about 50-50 linux/windows... airport displays are > 50% and same for billboards... Bank ATMs are almost all Windows, which are all over the place. -- edit 2 I don't think that linux doesn't have a place, and for non-display embedded devices is definitely the leader. I was mainly pointing that windows ce portables were not even the biggest point of windows embedded use, or even that it wasn't widespread.
    - m0xte 6y ago
      It has unfortunately. It's used in some of Keysight's oscilloscopes. Even the new ones. And it's not even a new version https://ripitapart.com/2018/10/15/gaining-access-to-the-windows-ce-desktop-and-doom-on-the-keysight-dsox1102g-oscilloscope/ https://ripitapart.com/2018/10/15/gaining-access-to-the-wind... Some of the later ones run Linux apparently but I've never seen one. All the Rigol ones are Linux based.
- tracker1 6y ago
  It's used in a lot of embedded scenarios... and will really depend on your use case. The raspberry pi will need a lot more/better hardware support if Windows is going to be a viable option. Video support is poor, onboard audio and lan aren't yet supported. It's somewhat cool, but will need much better hardware support, or higher end hardware depending on the purpose. If you aren't targeting something with end-user interfaces or consistent display needs, Linux is generally a better bet, and you can pretty much use the same languages and tooling. For embedding, about the only more painful use of linux is when you need a gui display, and even that can somewhat be worked around... testing and isolating updates is probably the larger cost multiplier vs. windows in terms of long term support.
- ldiracdelta 6y ago
  My experience in general with windows is that you need GUIs everywhere to configure stuff, whereas linux is text config first. I just deployed 20 pi's at work for a project and remote management on raspbian is fantastic. My BOM for the project is $300 and the previous system's BOM was $3k. Love raspbian. The other piece is that there are 10 years of raspbian questions and answers on the internet. You have a problem, then someone else has hit it.
  - fortran77 6y ago
    You can do absolutely everything from powershell on the command line, on your local machine or any machine in your network, from Windows 10.
    - ldiracdelta 6y ago
      Sure. It mostly isn't a first class customer, however. We may never have "The Year of The Linux Desktop" because of this, but command line configuration in Linux is the first class use case.
      - cptskippy 6y ago
        I don't agree with the comment you responded to but all server tools for Windows are configured via Powershell, and the GUIs just use the PowerShell Apis. They started migration back in server 2008 or 8r2 to support Headless/Azure. The GUI is literally a second class citizen in Windows Server these days.
        ldiracdelta 6y ago
        Fantastic. My experience is that when I have an issue on Windows my searches give me a ton of GUI screenshots, but in Linux I get text file edits and terminal commands. However I may be doing it wrong.
        rimjongun 6y ago
- lostlogin 6y ago
  > it seems like it could be a real game changer in general for IoT. Could you explain why Windows could make things better? As I get more IOT things I have gone more and more basic and had great success. I’m not suggesting that flashing ESP32 chips is the way forward for everyone, but it certainly has its merits. If the rough edges could be removed (imperfect flash software, the need for multiple guides, understanding pin layouts and my crap wiring) the basic method is great - name the chip, give an SSID and password, then tell it what sensors it has - flash. It’s a genuine 10 minutes before it’s in Home Assistant.
  - SiDevesh 6y ago
    You might want to checkout https://prismos.dev https://prismos.dev Full disclosure: This is a project I built addressing the exact same problems, its open source and currently more focused on building an easy to approach platform for developers and students new to the hardware scene
    - lostlogin 6y ago
      Thank you.
- mrpippy 6y ago
  Note that this utility is for installing the full desktop Windows on ARM (at best a gray area wrt licensing), not IoT
- kabdib 6y ago
  Let's just say that unless you're under a non-technical (e.g., political) mandate to use an embedded version of Windows, I cannot think of a good reason to seriously consider it.
- randomsearch 6y ago
  Windows IoT for Raspberry Pi is dead. That was enough for my to forget MS for the embedded end. Azure Hub sure. But a serious OS for the sensor end.
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  I knew someone at my old makerspace who was using it for a final thesis project several years back, when it was just out a year or so. He was a very capable C# programmer, I think this was the reason for picking it. But over the course of the project he became really bitter and his opinion dropped considerably. Apparently many things that are super easy to do on raspbian were impossible or super hard on Windows IoT. Not regular computing stuff, but integrating with hardware. GPIO, I2C, that kind of stuff.. The kind of stuff that's Bread & Butter for IoT in other words ;) I can't validate this as I've never really used it myself other than booting it once. But I valued his opinion highly.
  - RachelF 6y ago
    Yep, you'd need to write a device driver for all the hardware if Microsoft hasn't done it for you. I would not use Windows on a Pi, it can be done, but makes no sense to me.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  Windows CE is in a lot of things. The Coke freestyle machines are CE running on ancient overtaxed hardware hence the poor touch response.
  - cable2600 6y ago
    Don't forget some old ATM machines still use CE. Even older ATM machines use OS/2 Warp.
- CamperBob2 6y ago
  Does anyone have more experience with Windows on IoT devices in general? As long as Microsoft insists on force-feeding OS updates without permission from either users or developers, Windows is a non-starter for embedded online devices that need to maintain any semblance of reliability. For better or worse, they have taken Windows out of that particular market.
- numpad0 6y ago
  Could you elaborate a bit on why do you think full Windows on IoT is a game changer... I think it’ll drive up unit cost by few hundred dollars on top of tenfold degradation in experience, so my gut feeling is it’s completely disconnected from reality. That said Microsoft seemed to think the way you think at least at one point, so you’re not alone at all, and it’s interesting where the misunderstanding come from.
  - skohan 6y ago
    Yeah I also find this take confusing. The main USP for Windows is that it runs proprietary software which has been captured through vendor lock-in. Even if you are somebody who just likes windows for some reason, I'm not sure what the value-add would be for a machine with no UI
    - 6c696e7578 6y ago
      > I'm not sure what the value-add would be for a machine with no UI Educational lock-in. The RPI is a device for learning about computers. MS directly target the classroom at the moment, get people locked in early with online accounts, and then progress that into workplace familiarity. I don't think employers want to spend the money to educate staff on using a Ubuntu-based desktop, even though that has a proven lower TCO. Get them when they're in the class room. The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago.
      - skohan 6y ago
        Yeah I mean I can understand the value to MS but I don't see it for anyone else.
    - BlahGod420 6y ago
      I am thinking about how a machine might expose a UI to an AR viewer of some kind. So, the scenario is: you throw on a pair of AR glasses and open the network-viewing app. I imagine being able to see UIs for thermostats, media players, audio equipment, etc. I suspect a Windows IoT device might get one closer to such a goal? Maybe not?
- 6c696e7578 6y ago
  Windows on IoT, no. Windows as a risk, yes. Apologies if this seems rant-ish, but the idea has touched a nerve. IoT is generally something you should regard as a entrypoint into a network as much as desktops, servers, NAT broadband routers, APs are. Flash and forget is a dangerous thing, and especially so if all you wanted was an IP connected thermostat. If what you wanted was a thermostat with some sort of video output, then why not use an Arduino with a i2c serial ESP8622 or ESP32, or maybe an Orion Omega, note that the thermal output and voltage requirements increase. With smaller micro controllers and a serial connection you have mostly what you need, rather than a full-fat interface. The simplest solution is most likely the right one. Don't include a GUI and all that other warm and fuzzy stuff of MS unless it is needed on what could be an entry point to a network or if the IoT is infrastructure. There are things that could make IoT a very dependant piece of infrastructure. Suppose you deliver cargo. Suppose that some of the cargo is temperature dependent and you use a new IoT Rasp Pi 4 with Windows to control the refrigerator as your manager thinks money can be saved compared to old, in-person managed thermostats. Fluorouracil, a chemotherapy treatment, MUST be kept at 5c +/- 3c, otherwise patient health and treatment can be compromised. It also has a short shelf life, if your goal was to know how long it has been in transit (simple BBE stickers are probably better, but your concern as a consumer could be forgery). Something like IoT can help, and can hinder here, if you were to do end-to-end tracking of the supply chain, you could know it's whereabouts. If you were a malicious actor, you could do things like stuxnet, report that the thermostat is just fine, when really the shipment is at room temperature. Not that hard to imagine if you know where the shipments are from and your goal is to destabilise. Is a good old-fashioned thermostat better here? Maybe. If you need to remotely control something, I'd prefer slightly harder to update in the field, Arduinos/ESP than the risk of it being an entry point to a network in the wild. Many network infiltrations originate at the desktop. I'm classing Windows Server as desktop, because, well, it has a desktop out of the box. It is not a server OS. Real servers are not the entry point, despite their proximity to raw internet.
- swiley 6y ago
  > it seems like it could be a real game changer in general for IoT. How so? IMO GNU/Linux is a very good IoT os, especially since the GPL compels companies to release firmware source so the community can patch the device after the company abandons it.
- fomine3 6y ago
  Windows IoT is basically renamed from Windows Embedded.
DavideNL 6y ago
I wonder how well this runs in terms of CPU, i have a Macbook Pro and i don't hear the fans very often. Except when i run Windows 10, the fans frequently blast at the maximum level...
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  The only time I've ever heard the fans on my Mac Mini is when I run Windows Update. The strange thing is even though it is stressing the machine it's still slow at updating.
  - m0xte 6y ago
    Yeah I went for about a month thinking my Mac Mini fan was broken.
- jeroenhd 6y ago
  There's a reason for that, macOS loads a specific fan curve that prefers silence over performance, only kicking in a the last moment before the CPU overheats. This focus on silence also costs them in performance, but as long as the laptop is fast enough for most people, the raw performance probably doesn't matter to them. Windows doesn't about the thermal limits Apple put into place in their devices, so just treats it like a regular old laptop: boosting with fans turning whenever it needs to. However, it needs drivers to read the temperatures from the device and as far as I know, the Windows driver for reading those on Apple hardware aren't great (if they're available at all). This means Windows on a Mackintosh will always perform worse, because it doesn't have the same thermal information input as macOS has.
  - rimjongun 6y ago
    This sounds completely made up. If you have more info than pure conjecture, please share. I would wager the sensor drivers for Windows were written by apple.
    - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
pndy 6y ago
Wouldn't be that still kinda limited to what Microsoft Store provides in terms of software for everyday use? Because from what I remember, that translation feature on Windows which minces x86 to ARM is still away from being finished. I also wonder - which perhaps might sound bit naiive, if is there a chance that ARM will enter on PCs and we'll see combined architecture motherboards or at least some daughterboards with these processors; kinda similar to accelerator cards from Amigas.
- rowanG077 6y ago
  The translation feature that minces x86 to ARM is done. x64 is still in the works.
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    How is the performance?
    - geerlingguy 6y ago
      Very slow. Someone I saw on YouTube tested a couple simple platformer. X86 games on the Pi 4 and got 2-4 FPS. But it's neat that it works... there are plenty of simpler enterprise apps that would run just fine without a ton of performance.
    - Zenst 6y ago
      Half-life - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM7h1Wv2mCY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM7h1Wv2mCY GTA Vice City - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4MUV_9ODS8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4MUV_9ODS8 Certainly performance wise - better than expected, but gets down to what DX level the game is using, Rpi's not known for much graphics grunt. Though these two examples running well on the rpi4 with windows 10, better than you'd expect and kinda impressive.
      - rowanG077 6y ago
        And that is all running in software mode. The RPI4 has no working GPU.
GekkePrutser 6y ago
Nice find, this is really cool! I didn't know this was a thing, I tried the IoT version when it first came out but it wasn't very interesting.
- 6c696e7578 6y ago
  > this is really cool RPI's that windows, are not cool. They need cooling.
TheRealPomax 6y ago
Very cool, although a win10 minipc would probably make far more sense for people who specifically need a tiny windows 10 computer, especially as they basically cost less than what a copy of windows 10 pro costs. (A fully functional fanless atom x5-Z8350, 4GB ram, 64GB flash, Win10 pro x64 Mini-PC will set you back $139. A copy of Windows 10 pro x64 is $168...) And I know, some folks might say "why not a lattepanda?" to which the response really is "because that costs three times as much". Sure, you don't get GPIO pins on a minipc, but given that you can just buy a $10 data acquisition module that connects via USB, and that you can talk to using UART... that's hardly a problem?
- 1996 6y ago
  > A copy of Windows 10 pro x64 is $168... Cheaper on ebay. First sale doctrine covers you.
  - cable2600 6y ago
    I got a copy of Windows 7 Ultimate for free from Microsoft as part of a developers conference. Then I upgraded to Windows 10 Pro for free. I bought some Windows 7 upgrades and 8.0 upgrades that convert to Windows 10 as well. Microsoft has a good upgrade policy and the upgrade versions are cheap. I bought some when Amazon had a sale on pre-orders of 8.0 upgrades.
  - TheRealPomax 6y ago
    Until you discover it's an illegally sold volume license copy and the volume license gets voided. Fun times, fun times.
    - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
      Does this still happen? I bought my Win10 Pro key from a grey market site for like $10, so I figure it's likely an illegally sold volume license copy. Yeah, I totally acknowledge that it could get voided, but I know several other people who have bought their Windows key from these types of sites, and none have ever had a problem.
Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
I'm all in for expansion of RPi ecosystem. But personally, I would like to see improvements to smartphone linux desktop environments like Phosh/Plasma Mobile/Lomri for Raspberry Pi as this would enable anyone to plugin a GSM module, download some 3D printing smartphone designs, build themselves a nice and secure smartphone.
- nix23 6y ago
  Here you go: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices
  - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
    >desktop environments like Phosh/Plasma Mobile/Lomri for Raspberry Pi
    - nix23 6y ago
      >desktop environments Well it's a smartphone screen not a desktop, but here you go: https://www.notebookcheck.net/PinePhone-Convergence-Package-turns-the-inexpensive-smartphone-into-a-Linux-desktop-PC.481759.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/PinePhone-Convergence-Package-... https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/User-Interfaces https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/User-Interfaces
      - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
        Sorry, I meant smartphone interface like Plasma mobile, Phosh, Lomri for Raspberry Pi; Desktop environment terminology as with Linux on desktops could be wrong. Right now, you can use traditional desktop environment like LXDE/MATE with PostmarketOS on Raspberry Pi but I don't think there's a working smartphone interface for RPi with the projects you've linked[1]. Furthermore, Convergence feature of UBPorts (Ubuntu Touch) via Lomri helps our phone to be used in Desktop Mode. Here is my video demonstrating it[2]. [1]http://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_3 http://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_3 [2]https://twitter.com/heavyinfo/status/1251048583190609920 https://twitter.com/heavyinfo/status/1251048583190609920
sameeradb 6y ago
check this site to download free E-Books relating Computer Networks and Advance Networking https://srslearning.blogspot.com https://srslearning.blogspot.com
cerberusss 6y ago
I have an old Windows mini PC, which is based on a single core Atom CPU. Clicking the Settings button will take multiple seconds to launch the Settings app. I wonder if Windows on the RPi will fare better.
- nix23 6y ago
  A RPi4 with a external ssd (usb) would probably be better. A RPi5 with 8GB would be for shure much better.
  - techntoke 6y ago
    Arch running Sway would be awesome
    - nix23 6y ago
      Have Fun ;) Sway works: https://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Sway-0.15-Released https://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Sway-0.15-Re... Arch too: https://archlinuxarm.org/ https://archlinuxarm.org/
      - techntoke 6y ago
        I already run Sway on an old laptop. It is faster than my modern Windows gaming PC for most tasks and apps.
        nix23 6y ago
        Yes it's definitly snappy'er than X11 but i had some problems with hanging/blank windows last time i use'd it.
        techntoke 6y ago
        Yeah, had some issues too but everything seems resolved in the latest 1.5 update.
grapheq 6y ago
What would be a good reason to run a virus on Raspberry?

125 points by T-A 6y ago

Does anyone have more experience with Windows on IoT devices in general? I'm curious about this - it seems like it could be a real game changer in general for IoT. But if it is already available and not actually doing much game changing, I'd be curious to know why.

grugagag 6y ago
My opinion: I think it won't catch on as windows is too bloated and doesn't bring much advantage to the table. As a matter of fact i got a RPI just to have a standalone linux box.
- 6c696e7578 6y ago
  > As a matter of fact i got a RPI just to have a standalone linux box. And that's the beauty of Linux, it runs from mini devices to very very heavy supercomputers. I hope one day Steam will be more prevalent on Linux. It's about time MS is squeezed out the same way they squeezed Netscape out.
  - skohan 6y ago
    Proton is an amazing project. I hope it will lead to more Linux Steam users, and consiquently more 1st party support, because I'm sure MS will do everything in their power to make Proton less effective and reliable than it is today over time.
hristov 6y ago
Because it is bloated. It would run well on iot if you could make your iot device as big and as computationally powerful as a laptop.
- tracker1 6y ago
  It's not much better/worse than any modern linux desktop distribution... My biggest issues with the linux side usually come down to dealing with the one off issues that seem to popup on major updates... and never, ever try to use brand new hardware for you daily driver with linux unless you are prepared to deal with said frustrations.
detaro 6y ago
Embedded Windows has been a thing for a long time and has steadily become less and less relevant over the past decade or so, with many users slowly migrating away. It is more expensive and basically unsupported by Microsoft and hardware makers, while adding very little unique features. I've basically only encountered it in "We stop support for Windows" announcements, "Here's how to make migrating away from it a bit easier for your devs used to it" and "We need to migrate away from Windows, can you help?" You occasionally see Windows on stuff that runs full-size PCs "embedded" into a device, but then typically just normal Windows nowadays.
- zozbot234 6y ago
  > Embedded Windows has been a thing for a long time Mostly in Windows CE palmtops, based on a miniaturized version of the actual Windows 9x interface. Not sure it's ever been a thing in real embedded workloads.
  - detaro 6y ago
    Enough embedded use that I wouldn't bet on the "mostly" in your statement. And there's been different Embedded lines after WinCE.
  - tracker1 6y ago
    Well, considering if it's an embedded/utility device with a screen (that isn't a phone) there's a greater than 50% chance it's running some form of windows, I wouldn't consider that statement true at all. -- edit below For examples, the displays at restaurants are about 50-50 linux/windows... airport displays are > 50% and same for billboards... Bank ATMs are almost all Windows, which are all over the place. -- edit 2 I don't think that linux doesn't have a place, and for non-display embedded devices is definitely the leader. I was mainly pointing that windows ce portables were not even the biggest point of windows embedded use, or even that it wasn't widespread.
  - m0xte 6y ago
    It has unfortunately. It's used in some of Keysight's oscilloscopes. Even the new ones. And it's not even a new version https://ripitapart.com/2018/10/15/gaining-access-to-the-windows-ce-desktop-and-doom-on-the-keysight-dsox1102g-oscilloscope/ https://ripitapart.com/2018/10/15/gaining-access-to-the-wind... Some of the later ones run Linux apparently but I've never seen one. All the Rigol ones are Linux based.
tracker1 6y ago
It's used in a lot of embedded scenarios... and will really depend on your use case. The raspberry pi will need a lot more/better hardware support if Windows is going to be a viable option. Video support is poor, onboard audio and lan aren't yet supported. It's somewhat cool, but will need much better hardware support, or higher end hardware depending on the purpose. If you aren't targeting something with end-user interfaces or consistent display needs, Linux is generally a better bet, and you can pretty much use the same languages and tooling. For embedding, about the only more painful use of linux is when you need a gui display, and even that can somewhat be worked around... testing and isolating updates is probably the larger cost multiplier vs. windows in terms of long term support.
ldiracdelta 6y ago
My experience in general with windows is that you need GUIs everywhere to configure stuff, whereas linux is text config first. I just deployed 20 pi's at work for a project and remote management on raspbian is fantastic. My BOM for the project is $300 and the previous system's BOM was $3k. Love raspbian. The other piece is that there are 10 years of raspbian questions and answers on the internet. You have a problem, then someone else has hit it.
- fortran77 6y ago
  You can do absolutely everything from powershell on the command line, on your local machine or any machine in your network, from Windows 10.
  - ldiracdelta 6y ago
    Sure. It mostly isn't a first class customer, however. We may never have "The Year of The Linux Desktop" because of this, but command line configuration in Linux is the first class use case.
    - cptskippy 6y ago
      I don't agree with the comment you responded to but all server tools for Windows are configured via Powershell, and the GUIs just use the PowerShell Apis. They started migration back in server 2008 or 8r2 to support Headless/Azure. The GUI is literally a second class citizen in Windows Server these days.
      - ldiracdelta 6y ago
        Fantastic. My experience is that when I have an issue on Windows my searches give me a ton of GUI screenshots, but in Linux I get text file edits and terminal commands. However I may be doing it wrong.
        rimjongun 6y ago
lostlogin 6y ago
> it seems like it could be a real game changer in general for IoT. Could you explain why Windows could make things better? As I get more IOT things I have gone more and more basic and had great success. I’m not suggesting that flashing ESP32 chips is the way forward for everyone, but it certainly has its merits. If the rough edges could be removed (imperfect flash software, the need for multiple guides, understanding pin layouts and my crap wiring) the basic method is great - name the chip, give an SSID and password, then tell it what sensors it has - flash. It’s a genuine 10 minutes before it’s in Home Assistant.
- SiDevesh 6y ago
  You might want to checkout https://prismos.dev https://prismos.dev Full disclosure: This is a project I built addressing the exact same problems, its open source and currently more focused on building an easy to approach platform for developers and students new to the hardware scene
  - lostlogin 6y ago
    Thank you.
mrpippy 6y ago
Note that this utility is for installing the full desktop Windows on ARM (at best a gray area wrt licensing), not IoT
kabdib 6y ago
Let's just say that unless you're under a non-technical (e.g., political) mandate to use an embedded version of Windows, I cannot think of a good reason to seriously consider it.
randomsearch 6y ago
Windows IoT for Raspberry Pi is dead. That was enough for my to forget MS for the embedded end. Azure Hub sure. But a serious OS for the sensor end.
GekkePrutser 6y ago
I knew someone at my old makerspace who was using it for a final thesis project several years back, when it was just out a year or so. He was a very capable C# programmer, I think this was the reason for picking it. But over the course of the project he became really bitter and his opinion dropped considerably. Apparently many things that are super easy to do on raspbian were impossible or super hard on Windows IoT. Not regular computing stuff, but integrating with hardware. GPIO, I2C, that kind of stuff.. The kind of stuff that's Bread & Butter for IoT in other words ;) I can't validate this as I've never really used it myself other than booting it once. But I valued his opinion highly.
- RachelF 6y ago
  Yep, you'd need to write a device driver for all the hardware if Microsoft hasn't done it for you. I would not use Windows on a Pi, it can be done, but makes no sense to me.
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
Windows CE is in a lot of things. The Coke freestyle machines are CE running on ancient overtaxed hardware hence the poor touch response.
- cable2600 6y ago
  Don't forget some old ATM machines still use CE. Even older ATM machines use OS/2 Warp.
CamperBob2 6y ago
Does anyone have more experience with Windows on IoT devices in general? As long as Microsoft insists on force-feeding OS updates without permission from either users or developers, Windows is a non-starter for embedded online devices that need to maintain any semblance of reliability. For better or worse, they have taken Windows out of that particular market.
numpad0 6y ago
Could you elaborate a bit on why do you think full Windows on IoT is a game changer... I think it’ll drive up unit cost by few hundred dollars on top of tenfold degradation in experience, so my gut feeling is it’s completely disconnected from reality. That said Microsoft seemed to think the way you think at least at one point, so you’re not alone at all, and it’s interesting where the misunderstanding come from.
- skohan 6y ago
  Yeah I also find this take confusing. The main USP for Windows is that it runs proprietary software which has been captured through vendor lock-in. Even if you are somebody who just likes windows for some reason, I'm not sure what the value-add would be for a machine with no UI
  - 6c696e7578 6y ago
    > I'm not sure what the value-add would be for a machine with no UI Educational lock-in. The RPI is a device for learning about computers. MS directly target the classroom at the moment, get people locked in early with online accounts, and then progress that into workplace familiarity. I don't think employers want to spend the money to educate staff on using a Ubuntu-based desktop, even though that has a proven lower TCO. Get them when they're in the class room. The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago.
    - skohan 6y ago
      Yeah I mean I can understand the value to MS but I don't see it for anyone else.
  - BlahGod420 6y ago
    I am thinking about how a machine might expose a UI to an AR viewer of some kind. So, the scenario is: you throw on a pair of AR glasses and open the network-viewing app. I imagine being able to see UIs for thermostats, media players, audio equipment, etc. I suspect a Windows IoT device might get one closer to such a goal? Maybe not?
6c696e7578 6y ago
Windows on IoT, no. Windows as a risk, yes. Apologies if this seems rant-ish, but the idea has touched a nerve. IoT is generally something you should regard as a entrypoint into a network as much as desktops, servers, NAT broadband routers, APs are. Flash and forget is a dangerous thing, and especially so if all you wanted was an IP connected thermostat. If what you wanted was a thermostat with some sort of video output, then why not use an Arduino with a i2c serial ESP8622 or ESP32, or maybe an Orion Omega, note that the thermal output and voltage requirements increase. With smaller micro controllers and a serial connection you have mostly what you need, rather than a full-fat interface. The simplest solution is most likely the right one. Don't include a GUI and all that other warm and fuzzy stuff of MS unless it is needed on what could be an entry point to a network or if the IoT is infrastructure. There are things that could make IoT a very dependant piece of infrastructure. Suppose you deliver cargo. Suppose that some of the cargo is temperature dependent and you use a new IoT Rasp Pi 4 with Windows to control the refrigerator as your manager thinks money can be saved compared to old, in-person managed thermostats. Fluorouracil, a chemotherapy treatment, MUST be kept at 5c +/- 3c, otherwise patient health and treatment can be compromised. It also has a short shelf life, if your goal was to know how long it has been in transit (simple BBE stickers are probably better, but your concern as a consumer could be forgery). Something like IoT can help, and can hinder here, if you were to do end-to-end tracking of the supply chain, you could know it's whereabouts. If you were a malicious actor, you could do things like stuxnet, report that the thermostat is just fine, when really the shipment is at room temperature. Not that hard to imagine if you know where the shipments are from and your goal is to destabilise. Is a good old-fashioned thermostat better here? Maybe. If you need to remotely control something, I'd prefer slightly harder to update in the field, Arduinos/ESP than the risk of it being an entry point to a network in the wild. Many network infiltrations originate at the desktop. I'm classing Windows Server as desktop, because, well, it has a desktop out of the box. It is not a server OS. Real servers are not the entry point, despite their proximity to raw internet.
swiley 6y ago
> it seems like it could be a real game changer in general for IoT. How so? IMO GNU/Linux is a very good IoT os, especially since the GPL compels companies to release firmware source so the community can patch the device after the company abandons it.
fomine3 6y ago
Windows IoT is basically renamed from Windows Embedded.

DavideNL 6y ago

I wonder how well this runs in terms of CPU, i have a Macbook Pro and i don't hear the fans very often. Except when i run Windows 10, the fans frequently blast at the maximum level...

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
The only time I've ever heard the fans on my Mac Mini is when I run Windows Update. The strange thing is even though it is stressing the machine it's still slow at updating.
- m0xte 6y ago
  Yeah I went for about a month thinking my Mac Mini fan was broken.
jeroenhd 6y ago
There's a reason for that, macOS loads a specific fan curve that prefers silence over performance, only kicking in a the last moment before the CPU overheats. This focus on silence also costs them in performance, but as long as the laptop is fast enough for most people, the raw performance probably doesn't matter to them. Windows doesn't about the thermal limits Apple put into place in their devices, so just treats it like a regular old laptop: boosting with fans turning whenever it needs to. However, it needs drivers to read the temperatures from the device and as far as I know, the Windows driver for reading those on Apple hardware aren't great (if they're available at all). This means Windows on a Mackintosh will always perform worse, because it doesn't have the same thermal information input as macOS has.
- rimjongun 6y ago
  This sounds completely made up. If you have more info than pure conjecture, please share. I would wager the sensor drivers for Windows were written by apple.
  - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago

pndy 6y ago

Wouldn't be that still kinda limited to what Microsoft Store provides in terms of software for everyday use? Because from what I remember, that translation feature on Windows which minces x86 to ARM is still away from being finished. I also wonder - which perhaps might sound bit naiive, if is there a chance that ARM will enter on PCs and we'll see combined architecture motherboards or at least some daughterboards with these processors; kinda similar to accelerator cards from Amigas.

rowanG077 6y ago
The translation feature that minces x86 to ARM is done. x64 is still in the works.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  How is the performance?
  - geerlingguy 6y ago
    Very slow. Someone I saw on YouTube tested a couple simple platformer. X86 games on the Pi 4 and got 2-4 FPS. But it's neat that it works... there are plenty of simpler enterprise apps that would run just fine without a ton of performance.
  - Zenst 6y ago
    Half-life - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM7h1Wv2mCY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM7h1Wv2mCY GTA Vice City - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4MUV_9ODS8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4MUV_9ODS8 Certainly performance wise - better than expected, but gets down to what DX level the game is using, Rpi's not known for much graphics grunt. Though these two examples running well on the rpi4 with windows 10, better than you'd expect and kinda impressive.
    - rowanG077 6y ago
      And that is all running in software mode. The RPI4 has no working GPU.

GekkePrutser 6y ago

Nice find, this is really cool! I didn't know this was a thing, I tried the IoT version when it first came out but it wasn't very interesting.

6c696e7578 6y ago
> this is really cool RPI's that windows, are not cool. They need cooling.

TheRealPomax 6y ago

Very cool, although a win10 minipc would probably make far more sense for people who specifically need a tiny windows 10 computer, especially as they basically cost less than what a copy of windows 10 pro costs. (A fully functional fanless atom x5-Z8350, 4GB ram, 64GB flash, Win10 pro x64 Mini-PC will set you back $139. A copy of Windows 10 pro x64 is $168...) And I know, some folks might say "why not a lattepanda?" to which the response really is "because that costs three times as much". Sure, you don't get GPIO pins on a minipc, but given that you can just buy a $10 data acquisition module that connects via USB, and that you can talk to using UART... that's hardly a problem?

1996 6y ago
> A copy of Windows 10 pro x64 is $168... Cheaper on ebay. First sale doctrine covers you.
- cable2600 6y ago
  I got a copy of Windows 7 Ultimate for free from Microsoft as part of a developers conference. Then I upgraded to Windows 10 Pro for free. I bought some Windows 7 upgrades and 8.0 upgrades that convert to Windows 10 as well. Microsoft has a good upgrade policy and the upgrade versions are cheap. I bought some when Amazon had a sale on pre-orders of 8.0 upgrades.
- TheRealPomax 6y ago
  Until you discover it's an illegally sold volume license copy and the volume license gets voided. Fun times, fun times.
  - Sohcahtoa82 6y ago
    Does this still happen? I bought my Win10 Pro key from a grey market site for like $10, so I figure it's likely an illegally sold volume license copy. Yeah, I totally acknowledge that it could get voided, but I know several other people who have bought their Windows key from these types of sites, and none have ever had a problem.

Abishek_Muthian 6y ago

I'm all in for expansion of RPi ecosystem. But personally, I would like to see improvements to smartphone linux desktop environments like Phosh/Plasma Mobile/Lomri for Raspberry Pi as this would enable anyone to plugin a GSM module, download some 3D printing smartphone designs, build themselves a nice and secure smartphone.

nix23 6y ago
Here you go: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices
- Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
  >desktop environments like Phosh/Plasma Mobile/Lomri for Raspberry Pi
  - nix23 6y ago
    >desktop environments Well it's a smartphone screen not a desktop, but here you go: https://www.notebookcheck.net/PinePhone-Convergence-Package-turns-the-inexpensive-smartphone-into-a-Linux-desktop-PC.481759.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/PinePhone-Convergence-Package-... https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/User-Interfaces https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/User-Interfaces
    - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
      Sorry, I meant smartphone interface like Plasma mobile, Phosh, Lomri for Raspberry Pi; Desktop environment terminology as with Linux on desktops could be wrong. Right now, you can use traditional desktop environment like LXDE/MATE with PostmarketOS on Raspberry Pi but I don't think there's a working smartphone interface for RPi with the projects you've linked[1]. Furthermore, Convergence feature of UBPorts (Ubuntu Touch) via Lomri helps our phone to be used in Desktop Mode. Here is my video demonstrating it[2]. [1]http://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_3 http://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi_3 [2]https://twitter.com/heavyinfo/status/1251048583190609920 https://twitter.com/heavyinfo/status/1251048583190609920

sameeradb 6y ago

check this site to download free E-Books relating Computer Networks and Advance Networking https://srslearning.blogspot.com https://srslearning.blogspot.com

cerberusss 6y ago

I have an old Windows mini PC, which is based on a single core Atom CPU. Clicking the Settings button will take multiple seconds to launch the Settings app. I wonder if Windows on the RPi will fare better.

nix23 6y ago
A RPi4 with a external ssd (usb) would probably be better. A RPi5 with 8GB would be for shure much better.
- techntoke 6y ago
  Arch running Sway would be awesome
  - nix23 6y ago
    Have Fun ;) Sway works: https://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Sway-0.15-Released https://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Sway-0.15-Re... Arch too: https://archlinuxarm.org/ https://archlinuxarm.org/
    - techntoke 6y ago
      I already run Sway on an old laptop. It is faster than my modern Windows gaming PC for most tasks and apps.
      - nix23 6y ago
        Yes it's definitly snappy'er than X11 but i had some problems with hanging/blank windows last time i use'd it.
        techntoke 6y ago
        Yeah, had some issues too but everything seems resolved in the latest 1.5 update.

grapheq 6y ago

What would be a good reason to run a virus on Raspberry?