6 ms·

If you have someone in your life who is thinking like this and you can get them to read it I highly recommend "The Emporer of All Maladies". It's not a debunki

If you have someone in your life who is thinking like this and you can get them to read it I highly recommend "The Emporer of All Maladies". It's not a debunking book. It doesn't even address alternative treatments at all. It is a kind of biography of cancer. I think it can help because it puts faces to some of the people who have developed cancer treatments over the years. And it really demystifies the work pharmaceutical researches have done to develop chemotherapy. https://www.amazon.com/dp/1439170916/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_i_Z3XeFbDJNYEBM https://www.amazon.com/dp/1439170916/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_i_Z...

ouid 6y ago
I was about to take your recommendation at face value, but then I looked at your username.
TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
I read this book a few weeks ago and can recommend it as well. It's a very good book.
fossuser 6y ago
His second book, The Gene, is excellent too and definitely worth reading if you liked The Emperor of All Maladies.
- DubiousPusher 6y ago
  Will do. Looking forward to it now. Thanks.
Nextgrid 6y ago
The problem is that reading an entire book takes effort, and the whole reason why these quack treatments thrive is because people can't be bothered to do effort (and if they did they would have a very high likelihood of disproving the quack just based on reading existing medical literature) and want a quick and easy solution.
- janwillemb 6y ago
  I'm "quick to anger" when quackery is involved, but I don't think this is correct. Often the conspiracy people think they're well informed. And they are, but only informed by misinformation.
  - ecpottinger 6y ago
    No. I have to agree with the person who says they want a quick and easy solution. I am in a totally different area where I think people are mistaken, but if I suggest let's do the math or let's do some experiments to see the results the excuses start thick and thin. The fact is these people are too busy doing "magical thinking" when they know they are smarter than the average person and know something that the general "sheep" do not know. But the one thing they refuse to do is test their beliefs in such a manner that if they are wrong that they will be proved wrong. When they do show effort it is more do only the things that can prove them right, failure is not an option for them.
    - well_that_sucks 6y ago
      So you're saying that conspiracy theorists don't obsessively research? That's kinda their thing.. I would definitely say that they think they're well informed
      - baddox 6y ago
        “Research” is much easier when there’s no accountability mechanism for the claims you’re encountering. People may spend a lot of time watching YouTube videos, but that’s closer to binging a TV show than actually researching treatments.
        well_that_sucks 6y ago
        you're missing the point altogether. i said "they think they're well informed". read it again please
ntsplnkv2 6y ago
We try too hard to save those who don't want to be saved.
- DubiousPusher 6y ago
  Two friends are lost in the woods. One is experienced in fieldcraft, the other is not. The experienced friend consults a map, a compass, the position of the sun and some known landmarks and says, "we must go this way." The inexperienced friend complies and walks for hours with the experienced friend. Suddenly the experienced friend stops and takes their map and compass. "No reason to worry just double checking everything, we are getting closer." But the inexperienced friend sees no sign of progress. This cycle repeats several times over. They walk for hours. Stop to check. No sign of progress. Reassurances. Again and again. Finally the inexperienced friend says, "I recognize this place and I think I know the way back. Let's go this way." The experienced friend knows this is the wrong way and insists they go a different direction. After half an hour of arguing they part ways. In a few more hours the experienced friend finds their way out of the forest while the inexperienced friend remains hopelessly lost. The experienced friend finds a ranger station. A ranger there asks, "were you alone?" The experienced replies that they were not alone but it does not matter as their companion did not want to be saved.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    > The experienced friend knows this is the wrong way and insists they go a different direction. After half an hour of arguing they part ways. In the argument, the experienced outdoorsman explains how the map works, how the sun rises and sets as it does everyday - he explains the compass always points north, and the map is from the national park service. The other says "no, I'm right, because I feel right. In my heart, I know this is the right way, I KNOW I've seen this tree before." The outdoorsman was exasperated. He had spent time arguing with a man who knows nothing of being outdoors, insisting that he was correct. When he went back to the ranger and a search party formed, it occurred to him that, no matter how much logic and reason he assaulted his former friend with, nothing would shake his faith and the argument would have gone on until they had both died, or he had run off. They eventually found the other man - hours later. The other man was rescued and immediately saw how wrong he was, but it took something else to show that to him - true fear and failure.
specialist 6y ago
More useful would be actionable advice on deprogramming cult followers, probably tied back to some psychological trauma. My SIL just died as a consequence of her faith in alternative medicines. Magnetic blankets, some herbs, some homeopathic nonsense, faith healing, etc. More disturbing to me is that my brother went along with it. Transmuted from aspiring to be the next Jacques Cousteau to full throated fundie (young Earth, creationism, own the libtards, COVID hoax, gold bug, etc). FWIW, we were raised Lutheran. As kids, my brother held my hand during a bone marrow transplant. At some level, he knows the truth. But he and my SIL simply could not consider rational options. Not for lack of trying. Many, many people in my SIL's social circles and church tried to intervene. She simply ghosted most of them. And threatened to divorce my brother over it. Being an unwilling participant in their self-destruction (caring for my nephews), seeing them in action on their own turf, I finally realized the root cause is almost certainly unaddressed trauma. My SIL talked about chemotherapy like anorexics talk about food. And I'm fairly clear why my brother is a basket case. In conclusion, thank you for your suggestion. But ignorance isn't the problem. At least these two people who reject science are motivated by other reasons.

ouid 6y ago

I was about to take your recommendation at face value, but then I looked at your username.

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago

I read this book a few weeks ago and can recommend it as well. It's a very good book.

fossuser 6y ago

His second book, The Gene, is excellent too and definitely worth reading if you liked The Emperor of All Maladies.

DubiousPusher 6y ago
Will do. Looking forward to it now. Thanks.

Nextgrid 6y ago

The problem is that reading an entire book takes effort, and the whole reason why these quack treatments thrive is because people can't be bothered to do effort (and if they did they would have a very high likelihood of disproving the quack just based on reading existing medical literature) and want a quick and easy solution.

janwillemb 6y ago
I'm "quick to anger" when quackery is involved, but I don't think this is correct. Often the conspiracy people think they're well informed. And they are, but only informed by misinformation.
- ecpottinger 6y ago
  No. I have to agree with the person who says they want a quick and easy solution. I am in a totally different area where I think people are mistaken, but if I suggest let's do the math or let's do some experiments to see the results the excuses start thick and thin. The fact is these people are too busy doing "magical thinking" when they know they are smarter than the average person and know something that the general "sheep" do not know. But the one thing they refuse to do is test their beliefs in such a manner that if they are wrong that they will be proved wrong. When they do show effort it is more do only the things that can prove them right, failure is not an option for them.
  - well_that_sucks 6y ago
    So you're saying that conspiracy theorists don't obsessively research? That's kinda their thing.. I would definitely say that they think they're well informed
    - baddox 6y ago
      “Research” is much easier when there’s no accountability mechanism for the claims you’re encountering. People may spend a lot of time watching YouTube videos, but that’s closer to binging a TV show than actually researching treatments.
      - well_that_sucks 6y ago
        you're missing the point altogether. i said "they think they're well informed". read it again please

ntsplnkv2 6y ago

We try too hard to save those who don't want to be saved.

DubiousPusher 6y ago
Two friends are lost in the woods. One is experienced in fieldcraft, the other is not. The experienced friend consults a map, a compass, the position of the sun and some known landmarks and says, "we must go this way." The inexperienced friend complies and walks for hours with the experienced friend. Suddenly the experienced friend stops and takes their map and compass. "No reason to worry just double checking everything, we are getting closer." But the inexperienced friend sees no sign of progress. This cycle repeats several times over. They walk for hours. Stop to check. No sign of progress. Reassurances. Again and again. Finally the inexperienced friend says, "I recognize this place and I think I know the way back. Let's go this way." The experienced friend knows this is the wrong way and insists they go a different direction. After half an hour of arguing they part ways. In a few more hours the experienced friend finds their way out of the forest while the inexperienced friend remains hopelessly lost. The experienced friend finds a ranger station. A ranger there asks, "were you alone?" The experienced replies that they were not alone but it does not matter as their companion did not want to be saved.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  > The experienced friend knows this is the wrong way and insists they go a different direction. After half an hour of arguing they part ways. In the argument, the experienced outdoorsman explains how the map works, how the sun rises and sets as it does everyday - he explains the compass always points north, and the map is from the national park service. The other says "no, I'm right, because I feel right. In my heart, I know this is the right way, I KNOW I've seen this tree before." The outdoorsman was exasperated. He had spent time arguing with a man who knows nothing of being outdoors, insisting that he was correct. When he went back to the ranger and a search party formed, it occurred to him that, no matter how much logic and reason he assaulted his former friend with, nothing would shake his faith and the argument would have gone on until they had both died, or he had run off. They eventually found the other man - hours later. The other man was rescued and immediately saw how wrong he was, but it took something else to show that to him - true fear and failure.

specialist 6y ago

More useful would be actionable advice on deprogramming cult followers, probably tied back to some psychological trauma. My SIL just died as a consequence of her faith in alternative medicines. Magnetic blankets, some herbs, some homeopathic nonsense, faith healing, etc. More disturbing to me is that my brother went along with it. Transmuted from aspiring to be the next Jacques Cousteau to full throated fundie (young Earth, creationism, own the libtards, COVID hoax, gold bug, etc). FWIW, we were raised Lutheran. As kids, my brother held my hand during a bone marrow transplant. At some level, he knows the truth. But he and my SIL simply could not consider rational options. Not for lack of trying. Many, many people in my SIL's social circles and church tried to intervene. She simply ghosted most of them. And threatened to divorce my brother over it. Being an unwilling participant in their self-destruction (caring for my nephews), seeing them in action on their own turf, I finally realized the root cause is almost certainly unaddressed trauma. My SIL talked about chemotherapy like anorexics talk about food. And I'm fairly clear why my brother is a basket case. In conclusion, thank you for your suggestion. But ignorance isn't the problem. At least these two people who reject science are motivated by other reasons.