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> gerrymandering, polling center availability and security, chain of custody, paper processing, electronic machine hacks, suspect company backgrounds These are

> gerrymandering, polling center availability and security, chain of custody, paper processing, electronic machine hacks, suspect company backgrounds These are all important concerns, but they have absolutely nothing to do with vote fraud. The first two are voter suppression activities. The last four are election fraud, which is a very different thing than voter fraud. The notion that you have to follow up with every single voter is absurd. You can statistically sample anywhere you suspect (imagine) that fraud transpired and dig deeper in areas where you get hits. OP's first article even cites Rick Hasen who notes that there were only 491 prosecutions for absentee ballot fraud between 2000-2012. There is no widespread vote fraud problem. There hasn't been for decades

manigandham 6y ago
> "There is no widespread vote fraud problem. There hasn't been for decades" This is absolutely unproven. And absentee ballots are not the only way people vote, with prosecutions are only those who are caught and convicted. Here's a list of 1071 proven instances (more than twice) from the very first search on the subject: https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/docs/pacei-voterfraudcases.pdf https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/docs/p... There is no way to know what the real votes are supposed to be unless you confirm with the person who voted. Whether you want to call it election fraud or voting fraud, it's the same problem because you don't know it occurred unless you have the ground truth to check against. There is no mass confirmation stage for votes to be able to gather this data and thus it's completely unknown.
- coolgeek 6y ago
  So, 1,071 proven instances over what period of time? Over what overall count of cast ballots? Here are some other reviews: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-com... https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud... https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/05/politics/ohio-illegal-voting-2018-election/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/05/politics/ohio-illegal-voting-...
  - manigandham 6y ago
    The first article you link is only looking into 1 specific type of fraud of voter impersonation, and even mentions many other instances of other kinds. Again, without confirming the votes independently, you have no truth set to compare for finding the real results easily. There is still no answer to this. Also 99.9% of people already have IDs and need them for living in society so it's strange to say that voting is the only thing that should be defended from requiring it. I find this outright dismissal of no fraud existing to be worrisome. It's the same as antivax and other conspiracy theories and more aligned with a narrative than any discovery of truth.
    - coolgeek 6y ago
      My second link cited 20 studies, 4 court cases and 8 state-wide or federal investigations. > Also 99.9% of people already have IDs Citation needed. https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a... I find it odd that you accuse me of conspiracy theory as you're the one alleging a conspiracy without being able to provide any evidence that one exists. Before you re-cite your 1,071 instances in reply, note that in every one of my comments I said widespread fraud. I never argued that incidental fraud does not occur
      - manigandham 6y ago
        I'm saying fraud is unknown. Your claim is that there is none, but there is no way to prove a negative and there has been no serious confirmation at scale to conclude otherwise. Your links are limited to voter ID but there are more types of fraud and, as I explained before, they're all the same as far as needing confirmation to be able to measure. Instant dismissal without study is the problem, and just as conspiratorial as saying it's rampant. I simply want the truth through evidence. As far as IDs, they're necessary for: opening a bank account, cashing a check, driving a car, buying a car, buying a house, signing a lease, having employment, buying any insurance, using any form of credit, going to school, paying for utilities, receiving welfare, food stamps or any public benefits. Please explain the overlap of people who have never done any of these things, don't have any ID, don't have any legal documentation, and are eligible to vote. Your 2nd link describes someone who has 2 IDs already, and has failed to get a new one after it expired. There will always be anecdotes of such paperwork mishaps but this doesn't show that there's a structural problem (he refuses to go to court to fix records even though fees can be waived easily). The idea that a certain race or group of people are incapable of attaining IDs like everyone else is a prime example of the bigotry of soft expectations.

manigandham 6y ago

> "There is no widespread vote fraud problem. There hasn't been for decades" This is absolutely unproven. And absentee ballots are not the only way people vote, with prosecutions are only those who are caught and convicted. Here's a list of 1071 proven instances (more than twice) from the very first search on the subject: https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/docs/pacei-voterfraudcases.pdf https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/docs/p... There is no way to know what the real votes are supposed to be unless you confirm with the person who voted. Whether you want to call it election fraud or voting fraud, it's the same problem because you don't know it occurred unless you have the ground truth to check against. There is no mass confirmation stage for votes to be able to gather this data and thus it's completely unknown.

coolgeek 6y ago
So, 1,071 proven instances over what period of time? Over what overall count of cast ballots? Here are some other reviews: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-com... https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud-myth https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/debunking-voter-fraud... https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/05/politics/ohio-illegal-voting-2018-election/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/05/politics/ohio-illegal-voting-...
- manigandham 6y ago
  The first article you link is only looking into 1 specific type of fraud of voter impersonation, and even mentions many other instances of other kinds. Again, without confirming the votes independently, you have no truth set to compare for finding the real results easily. There is still no answer to this. Also 99.9% of people already have IDs and need them for living in society so it's strange to say that voting is the only thing that should be defended from requiring it. I find this outright dismissal of no fraud existing to be worrisome. It's the same as antivax and other conspiracy theories and more aligned with a narrative than any discovery of truth.
  - coolgeek 6y ago
    My second link cited 20 studies, 4 court cases and 8 state-wide or federal investigations. > Also 99.9% of people already have IDs Citation needed. https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a... I find it odd that you accuse me of conspiracy theory as you're the one alleging a conspiracy without being able to provide any evidence that one exists. Before you re-cite your 1,071 instances in reply, note that in every one of my comments I said widespread fraud. I never argued that incidental fraud does not occur
    - manigandham 6y ago
      I'm saying fraud is unknown. Your claim is that there is none, but there is no way to prove a negative and there has been no serious confirmation at scale to conclude otherwise. Your links are limited to voter ID but there are more types of fraud and, as I explained before, they're all the same as far as needing confirmation to be able to measure. Instant dismissal without study is the problem, and just as conspiratorial as saying it's rampant. I simply want the truth through evidence. As far as IDs, they're necessary for: opening a bank account, cashing a check, driving a car, buying a car, buying a house, signing a lease, having employment, buying any insurance, using any form of credit, going to school, paying for utilities, receiving welfare, food stamps or any public benefits. Please explain the overlap of people who have never done any of these things, don't have any ID, don't have any legal documentation, and are eligible to vote. Your 2nd link describes someone who has 2 IDs already, and has failed to get a new one after it expired. There will always be anecdotes of such paperwork mishaps but this doesn't show that there's a structural problem (he refuses to go to court to fix records even though fees can be waived easily). The idea that a certain race or group of people are incapable of attaining IDs like everyone else is a prime example of the bigotry of soft expectations.