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There's a fourth reason not to do this that isn't mentioned in the article: tracking is unethical. Don't do it.

jtsiskin 6y ago
I think it is possible to do tracking responsibly. I don’t really see a problem with server-side anonymized tracking used to improve the product. (But yes, the blog author also talks about FB and Google pixel tracking, which is very different)
- mrmonkeyman 6y ago
  BS. It's just monitoring marketing performance. That's cool, it's alright, but just say it, don't lie about it.
- d0gbread 6y ago
  It's against Google's terms of service to collect personally identifiable information so it's anonymized there, too. It's the same -- you can collect data server side via the measurement protocol via the same hit parameters. Either way, you can be responsible about measurement.
XCSme 6y ago
So tracking your bounce-rates/conversion rates to know if your marketing budget is spent wisely is unethical?
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  If tracking wasn't useful nobody would do it.
  - Veen 6y ago
    That’s like saying if homeopathy wasn’t useful no one would do it. Both homeopathy and ad tech are “useful” to someone, but most benefit accrues to the seller, not the buyer.
    - faeyanpiraat 6y ago
      If you go one step further, and assume that the product is good then tracking benefits the buyer, because it can make the company survive, therefore sell the product to the buyer longer.
kirillzubovsky 6y ago
Parker Thomson, aka StartupLJackson, had a great view on this. Would you rather see a ton of ads that are completely irrelevant to you, or see ads that you actually need? Tracking that makes your life better is useful. If Opendoor knows you are looking for a new house in Arizona, and they can show you just the right house before it's sold to someone else, isn't that fantastic?
- ffpip 6y ago
  I'd rather see some irreverent ads. They feel less intrusive them personalized ads. Just a feeling.
- IggleSniggle 6y ago
  Honestly? I'd rather see more ads that are irrelevant. Ads are already an attempt at manipulation. I would feel better knowing that everyone else is seeing the same shit I'm seeing. That I'm not being pandered to. That there are things that are valuable to others that I have no personal value in. That's part of living in a diverse world. I don't know about you, but I don't want a myopic world for myself. The perfect ad targeting system removes my agency; decides what I want and can afford on my behalf; makes my world significantly smaller.
  - d0gbread 6y ago
    And I'd rather see more search results that aren't tuned to me. Down with algorithms! Down with personalization! I'm surprised how much hate there is on HN - the entire future of technology feels like it's heavy on data, personalization, and prediction, but a lot of comments read like a parent or grandparent that was targeted and is loading up their shotgun. The technology isn't the enemy, some of the use is. And in some cases, we need legislation to catch up, like it gas started to for things like loot boxes / gambling in kid's games.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- culturedsystems 6y ago
  The point of ad tracking is not to show ads that you need. It's to show ads that are likely to make you take the actions the advertisers need you to take. If the trackers determine that you have a gambling addiction and serve you ads for gambling sites, they're working as intended, but they're not helping you. If advertisers determine that their overall profits are increased by not showing ads for houses in desirable neighbourhoods to certain demographic groups, that's not good for the people in those groups.
chrismorgan 6y ago
Though this article is not recommending removing tracking, but rather triggering your tracking from the backend or edge, because that way the user can’t stop it from working! I confess that in some ways I prefer tracking to conventionally happen on the frontend because then I can block it. (Yet even so, backend-triggered tracking is probably less privacy-intrusive than frontend-, even if you’re sending the data to Google or Facebook or whoever.)
- Jon_Lowtek 6y ago
  The whole idea of "tracking" is to collect data from users to 1: make them identifiable 2: add more data to a collection about them 3: run profiling on that data 4: manipulate them based on assumptions about the profile. More server side data harvesting will not make that less intrusive.
  - akerl_ 6y ago
    As a thought experiment: I run a web store, and I sell funny hats. I’m looking to sell more hats. Is it unethical if I keep track of how many people buy which hats, so I know which kinds of hats sell best? What about if I keep track of what hats each of my customers buys, so that I can tell which hats I might want to bundle together into hat packs? Maybe I’m not super technical, so I pay a 3rd party service to analyze my transaction logs and tell me the above answers. Or I realize some hats aren’t selling, so I check to see if people are going to that page and just not purchasing, or never going to that hat’s page at all. To say that sites use tracking to “manipulate” users is playing pretty icky word games. Yes. The purpose of all marketing is to “manipulate”. So are opinion columns in newspapers. Job interviews are an employer manipulating a candidate and a candidate manipulating an employer. Manipulation is just a scarier-sounding word for “persuasion”.
    - Jon_Lowtek 6y ago
      We are talking web tech user tracking - this is not about "keeping track how many hats you sold".

I think it is possible to do tracking responsibly. I don’t really see a problem with server-side anonymized tracking used to improve the product. (But yes, the blog author also talks about FB and Google pixel tracking, which is very different)

mrmonkeyman 6y ago
BS. It's just monitoring marketing performance. That's cool, it's alright, but just say it, don't lie about it.
d0gbread 6y ago
It's against Google's terms of service to collect personally identifiable information so it's anonymized there, too. It's the same -- you can collect data server side via the measurement protocol via the same hit parameters. Either way, you can be responsible about measurement.

XCSme 6y ago

So tracking your bounce-rates/conversion rates to know if your marketing budget is spent wisely is unethical?

throwaway2048 6y ago
If tracking wasn't useful nobody would do it.
- Veen 6y ago
  That’s like saying if homeopathy wasn’t useful no one would do it. Both homeopathy and ad tech are “useful” to someone, but most benefit accrues to the seller, not the buyer.
  - faeyanpiraat 6y ago
    If you go one step further, and assume that the product is good then tracking benefits the buyer, because it can make the company survive, therefore sell the product to the buyer longer.

kirillzubovsky 6y ago

Parker Thomson, aka StartupLJackson, had a great view on this. Would you rather see a ton of ads that are completely irrelevant to you, or see ads that you actually need? Tracking that makes your life better is useful. If Opendoor knows you are looking for a new house in Arizona, and they can show you just the right house before it's sold to someone else, isn't that fantastic?

ffpip 6y ago
I'd rather see some irreverent ads. They feel less intrusive them personalized ads. Just a feeling.
IggleSniggle 6y ago
Honestly? I'd rather see more ads that are irrelevant. Ads are already an attempt at manipulation. I would feel better knowing that everyone else is seeing the same shit I'm seeing. That I'm not being pandered to. That there are things that are valuable to others that I have no personal value in. That's part of living in a diverse world. I don't know about you, but I don't want a myopic world for myself. The perfect ad targeting system removes my agency; decides what I want and can afford on my behalf; makes my world significantly smaller.
- d0gbread 6y ago
  And I'd rather see more search results that aren't tuned to me. Down with algorithms! Down with personalization! I'm surprised how much hate there is on HN - the entire future of technology feels like it's heavy on data, personalization, and prediction, but a lot of comments read like a parent or grandparent that was targeted and is loading up their shotgun. The technology isn't the enemy, some of the use is. And in some cases, we need legislation to catch up, like it gas started to for things like loot boxes / gambling in kid's games.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
culturedsystems 6y ago
The point of ad tracking is not to show ads that you need. It's to show ads that are likely to make you take the actions the advertisers need you to take. If the trackers determine that you have a gambling addiction and serve you ads for gambling sites, they're working as intended, but they're not helping you. If advertisers determine that their overall profits are increased by not showing ads for houses in desirable neighbourhoods to certain demographic groups, that's not good for the people in those groups.

chrismorgan 6y ago

Though this article is not recommending removing tracking, but rather triggering your tracking from the backend or edge, because that way the user can’t stop it from working! I confess that in some ways I prefer tracking to conventionally happen on the frontend because then I can block it. (Yet even so, backend-triggered tracking is probably less privacy-intrusive than frontend-, even if you’re sending the data to Google or Facebook or whoever.)

Jon_Lowtek 6y ago
The whole idea of "tracking" is to collect data from users to 1: make them identifiable 2: add more data to a collection about them 3: run profiling on that data 4: manipulate them based on assumptions about the profile. More server side data harvesting will not make that less intrusive.
- akerl_ 6y ago
  As a thought experiment: I run a web store, and I sell funny hats. I’m looking to sell more hats. Is it unethical if I keep track of how many people buy which hats, so I know which kinds of hats sell best? What about if I keep track of what hats each of my customers buys, so that I can tell which hats I might want to bundle together into hat packs? Maybe I’m not super technical, so I pay a 3rd party service to analyze my transaction logs and tell me the above answers. Or I realize some hats aren’t selling, so I check to see if people are going to that page and just not purchasing, or never going to that hat’s page at all. To say that sites use tracking to “manipulate” users is playing pretty icky word games. Yes. The purpose of all marketing is to “manipulate”. So are opinion columns in newspapers. Job interviews are an employer manipulating a candidate and a candidate manipulating an employer. Manipulation is just a scarier-sounding word for “persuasion”.
  - Jon_Lowtek 6y ago
    We are talking web tech user tracking - this is not about "keeping track how many hats you sold".