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Even the 'best traits of canine personality'... aren't even true in a general sense. That's more of a human conception of the end result of natural tendencies,

Even the 'best traits of canine personality'... aren't even true in a general sense. That's more of a human conception of the end result of natural tendencies, training, anthropomorphism, and how dogs are portrayed in the media. > Dogs are loyal and eager to please... I foster, train, and board dogs. Trust me when I say this idea that dogs are 'loyal and eager to please' is very specific to certain breeds (e.g. Goldens). Most breeds only become 'loyal and eager to please' if their owner is clearly in charge. I generally foster huskies. They've all been either from a puppy mill or have been feral (so in either case they have no real human interaction before I get them) and they don't really have any interest in what I want at all until they've been with me and trained for awhile. > they don't dwell on the past... Dogs don't not dwell on the past, either. They're more or less completely unaware of it. However they experienced an event doesn't become a memory that they later recall. However they interpreted those events at the time had its influence on their future behavior and they can never go back and re-examine that event. They do have a sense of time, but it's not like ours. It's based on smell. "That girl dog I like was here, but the scent has faded, so she was here, but she's not now."

baggy_trough 6y ago
> Dogs don't not dwell on the past, either. They're more or less completely unaware of it. However they experienced an event doesn't become a memory that they later recall. However they interpreted those events at the time had its influence on their future behavior and they can never go back and re-examine that event. They do have a sense of time, but it's not like ours. It's based on smell. What is the evidence for this?
- cgriswald 6y ago
  As a for-instance: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29261497/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29261497/ The article is in French, but the abstract is in English. If you search for "animals" and "episodic memory"[0] (the type of memory you think of as a 'memory') you'll find a lot of studies claiming no animals other than humans have episodic memory. I'm not certain that's entirely true (and a lot of the studies will have caveats). If you search for "dogs" and "episodic memory" you'll find some disagreement as well; not arguing that dogs have human-like memory, but more that whether an animal has "episodic memory" isn't binary (e.g., https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982216311423 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098221... ). Also interesting is this study on short term memory in animals: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0376635714003027 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03766... [0] - https://www.livescience.com/43713-memory.html https://www.livescience.com/43713-memory.html Edit: Fixed links.
  - baggy_trough 6y ago
    I can't read French, but the abstract states "dogs remember who and what happened but no study evidenced yet that they remember the precise time it was done." That is a much lesser claim than "they're more or less completely unaware of it (the past)"
    - cgriswald 6y ago
      There’s plenty of more studies out there, many paywalled. I just offered you one so you’d get the idea and have a place to start if you were actually interested. My point is that dogs don’t have a “past” to dwell on the way we do. Where you or I have a specific memory of playing fetch that we can replay, analyze, and put into new contexts, dogs have a sort of database of facts: “Rules of fetch”, “ball = fun”, “this human plays fetch”. They are “things remembered” versus “memories”.
      - baggy_trough 6y ago
        I read all of your provided links, but I'm not convinced they support what you claim about dog memories.
        cgriswald 6y ago
        I don’t know what to tell you, man. I don’t keep a list of books and papers I’ve read about every topic and sharing my direct experience isn’t possible. I gave you a starting point to sate your own curiosity. I don’t have any interest in defending a claim I know to be true on an off-handed comment on a low stakes topic. I’m not here to convince you or educate you.
        baggy_trough 6y ago
        Thank you for providing the links.

baggy_trough 6y ago

> Dogs don't not dwell on the past, either. They're more or less completely unaware of it. However they experienced an event doesn't become a memory that they later recall. However they interpreted those events at the time had its influence on their future behavior and they can never go back and re-examine that event. They do have a sense of time, but it's not like ours. It's based on smell. What is the evidence for this?

cgriswald 6y ago
As a for-instance: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29261497/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29261497/ The article is in French, but the abstract is in English. If you search for "animals" and "episodic memory"[0] (the type of memory you think of as a 'memory') you'll find a lot of studies claiming no animals other than humans have episodic memory. I'm not certain that's entirely true (and a lot of the studies will have caveats). If you search for "dogs" and "episodic memory" you'll find some disagreement as well; not arguing that dogs have human-like memory, but more that whether an animal has "episodic memory" isn't binary (e.g., https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982216311423 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098221... ). Also interesting is this study on short term memory in animals: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0376635714003027 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03766... [0] - https://www.livescience.com/43713-memory.html https://www.livescience.com/43713-memory.html Edit: Fixed links.
- baggy_trough 6y ago
  I can't read French, but the abstract states "dogs remember who and what happened but no study evidenced yet that they remember the precise time it was done." That is a much lesser claim than "they're more or less completely unaware of it (the past)"
  - cgriswald 6y ago
    There’s plenty of more studies out there, many paywalled. I just offered you one so you’d get the idea and have a place to start if you were actually interested. My point is that dogs don’t have a “past” to dwell on the way we do. Where you or I have a specific memory of playing fetch that we can replay, analyze, and put into new contexts, dogs have a sort of database of facts: “Rules of fetch”, “ball = fun”, “this human plays fetch”. They are “things remembered” versus “memories”.
    - baggy_trough 6y ago
      I read all of your provided links, but I'm not convinced they support what you claim about dog memories.
      - cgriswald 6y ago
        I don’t know what to tell you, man. I don’t keep a list of books and papers I’ve read about every topic and sharing my direct experience isn’t possible. I gave you a starting point to sate your own curiosity. I don’t have any interest in defending a claim I know to be true on an off-handed comment on a low stakes topic. I’m not here to convince you or educate you.
        baggy_trough 6y ago
        Thank you for providing the links.