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This is a big reason why I continue to use apple devices. They seem to be one of the few large tech companies that aligns themselves with users rights to priva

This is a big reason why I continue to use apple devices. They seem to be one of the few large tech companies that aligns themselves with users rights to privacy. Apple isn’t perfect. But they build very good privacy and security into their products. And they structure their UI and defaults in such a way that the average user benefits with no effort or specialized knowledge.

Silhouette 6y ago
But they build very good privacy and security into their products. And they structure their UI and defaults in such a way that the average user benefits with no effort or specialized knowledge. Sometimes they do, and I agree that they're much better than a lot of big tech companies. Still, their insistence on tying almost everything to iCloud and then not encrypting iCloud properly is a major black mark against them, which severely reduces the usefulness of their devices and associated services if you value privacy and security.
- lilyball 6y ago
  On the other hand, tying everything to iCloud and then losing all your data because you replaced your sole device and forgot your password would be disastrous. This is the scenario that requires Apple to retain the keys to your iCloud, and as long as they have those keys, they can be compelled to decrypt it under lawful government order.
  - tjoff 6y ago
    How do you prove that it is your account then?
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    The thing is, once data is in iCloud, there are other ways you can retrieve it and back it up yourself as long as you do have working authentication, and I can see no good argument for not offering E2E encryption across the board that is tied to such identification. Worst case, you generate a suitably robust key that is used for authentication and encryption, and you provide a means to export it and back it up however you want without sending it to any third party. You can still use all the snazzy secure enclaves and facial recognition and so on to protect a copy of that key that is held on each of your personal devices to enable easy but reasonably secure access, but the underlying technology is tried and tested, it does not have the lock-in problem, and it does not require data in iCloud to be accessible to anyone but the keyholder. Also note that this needn't necessarily be mandatory. If users are OK with trusting Apple, they could still use the current approach. But if you're going to claim to be a strong supporter of privacy and security, you should really have at least the option for proper encryption of everything for those people and businesses that want it.
  - deeblering4 6y ago
    Yes, although this is hardly unique to Apple. Play mad-libs with this statement and it applies to the vast majority of cloud solutions. ___ have your ____, and as long as they have those ____, they can be compelled to ____ it under lawful government order.
    - lilyball 6y ago
      That's true, and most cloud solutions also do the same thing as Apple and retain the keys necessary to regain access to the account.
  - lifeisstillgood 6y ago
    These days I have enough other apple devices tied in (family settings etc) that i could lose one device and still be authenticated via another I think the secure enclave is the winning technology - whilst not everyone has to have a smartphone in the brave new digital world,everyone will have to have at least one secure enclave (HSM probably tied to biometrics)
- lh7777 6y ago
  This is frustrating, but it doesn't bother me too much on the iPhone -- I can just not use iCloud and periodically back up my phone locally. I don't really need to sync anything but photos because I don't create or edit documents on my phone. On the other hand, the iPad is a very capable device for content creation, but I couldn't find a reliable way to sync files that doesn't leave them readable to Apple or another party. That'd probably be OK if I could use an iPad as my only computer, but I can't (or won't) today.
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    I don't really need to sync anything but photos because I don't create or edit documents on my phone. This is one of the key points. You can plug an iPhone into almost any modern PC, Apple or otherwise, and download the photos and videos. But you can't do the same for other types of data without using one or more of an Apple computer, specialist software or iCloud. The middle option, which is the only one not entirely controlled by Apple itself, has a long history of attempts that proved not to work entirely reliably or last for long. And as you say, for an iPad, where perhaps more users want to do substantial creative work, the same issues apply. I understand that Apple's current business model is heavily tied to locking customers into its ecosystem, but that does become a significant problem for people who just want a nice phone but also respect for their privacy, and I do think Apple should be called out for this just as I think it's fair to praise them for being much better on broader privacy issues than most of their competitors.
    - throwaway5792 6y ago
      What do you mean other types of data?
      - Silhouette 6y ago
        Almost anything else. iOS devices use the same protocols as things like DSLR cameras to allow plug-and-play access to download photos and videos (unless, ironically, you have iTunes software installed and it gets in the way). However, there is no equivalent to let you browse and locally download messages, notes, creative work, or any other type of data you might have on your phone with using one of the channels I mentioned before.
- theferalrobot 6y ago
  Most app backups in icloud are end to end encrypted. If you choose to backup your entire device in icloud (rather than automatically on your local mac) that backup is not end to end encrypted. I agree it should be but that doesn’t seem like a huge deal especially considering the alternative platform (android) doesn’t even have a comprehensive backup solution (only individual apps via gdrive etc).
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    I agree it should be but that doesn’t seem like a huge deal I respectfully disagree. Encouraging people to upload data that will probably be very personal in some cases, such as photos, videos or messages they store on their phone, without proper safeguards is at best negligent and/or abusive depending on your point of view. The fact that the other major mobile platform is even worse doesn't make the former situation any better.
GoToRO 6y ago
“Apple isn’t perfect.“ That’s the understatement of the year! Today I just found out that iOS will not show you the size of the videos for example. And there is no easy way to get it.
gigatexal 6y ago
100% true for me and my family too. The vertically integrated software where most things just work and work well together is nice too
jchook 6y ago
I definitely see some questionable privacy practices by Apple... - While "10x less", iPhone still sends your private information (such as location) to Apple on a regular basis[1]. - Apple encrypts iCloud backups with a key they control, not end-to-end[2]. This means that Apple can decrypt and inspect your phone and computer backups. - According to the article, iOS developers can use their "new privacy-focused ad framework" to "allow anonymously retrieving data without getting a hold of the user or specific information". I don't fully understand that sentence but it sounds a lot like Apple trying to compete directly with Goog + FB in the advertising industry. - Hardware made in China[3]. 1. https://digitalcontentnext.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/DCN-Google-Data-Collection-Paper.pdf https://digitalcontentnext.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/DC... 2. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 3. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-hack-how-china-used-a-tiny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-h...
- s1k3s 6y ago
  Isn’t point 2 a consequence of the law that they have to follow? Don’t know about rest of the world but I think in EU they are forced to disclose your personal information to the government if asked to do so. This is also in their privacy policy.
  - threeseed 6y ago
    I think this is definitely the case. And as iCloud is a global service they really have to cater for the lowest common denominator.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    Then they could offer that feature just in those jurisdictions.
- rargulati 6y ago
  Aren't there ways of verifying the integrity of the hardware via software on boot?
- 6y ago
smart_jackal 6y ago
Most importantly, their interests directly align with users actually buying their products, not viewing ads on their products. Thus, they have a sort of vested interest in ensuring privacy (which is a product feature). The same cannot be said of Google's Android.
username_my1 6y ago
What I love about this move is that it's a double edged sword against google. ether google have to 1. cannibalize their main source of revenue and implement similar feature on Android and thus becoming a weaker competitor. 2. don't follow apple and let apple eat more of the smartphone market of people who worry about their privacy. Apple doesn't make money from Ads, so it's strange that they waited this long to do this.
- searchableguy 6y ago
  > The company had the potential to raise revenue by a third every year, from an estimated $2 billion currently to $11 billion in 2025. Source: https://in.reuters.com/article/apple-advertising/apple-could-raise-annual-ad-income-to-11-billion-by-2025-jpmorgan-idINKBN1XP1AX https://in.reuters.com/article/apple-advertising/apple-could...

Silhouette 6y ago

But they build very good privacy and security into their products. And they structure their UI and defaults in such a way that the average user benefits with no effort or specialized knowledge. Sometimes they do, and I agree that they're much better than a lot of big tech companies. Still, their insistence on tying almost everything to iCloud and then not encrypting iCloud properly is a major black mark against them, which severely reduces the usefulness of their devices and associated services if you value privacy and security.

lilyball 6y ago
On the other hand, tying everything to iCloud and then losing all your data because you replaced your sole device and forgot your password would be disastrous. This is the scenario that requires Apple to retain the keys to your iCloud, and as long as they have those keys, they can be compelled to decrypt it under lawful government order.
- tjoff 6y ago
  How do you prove that it is your account then?
- Silhouette 6y ago
  The thing is, once data is in iCloud, there are other ways you can retrieve it and back it up yourself as long as you do have working authentication, and I can see no good argument for not offering E2E encryption across the board that is tied to such identification. Worst case, you generate a suitably robust key that is used for authentication and encryption, and you provide a means to export it and back it up however you want without sending it to any third party. You can still use all the snazzy secure enclaves and facial recognition and so on to protect a copy of that key that is held on each of your personal devices to enable easy but reasonably secure access, but the underlying technology is tried and tested, it does not have the lock-in problem, and it does not require data in iCloud to be accessible to anyone but the keyholder. Also note that this needn't necessarily be mandatory. If users are OK with trusting Apple, they could still use the current approach. But if you're going to claim to be a strong supporter of privacy and security, you should really have at least the option for proper encryption of everything for those people and businesses that want it.
- deeblering4 6y ago
  Yes, although this is hardly unique to Apple. Play mad-libs with this statement and it applies to the vast majority of cloud solutions. ___ have your ____, and as long as they have those ____, they can be compelled to ____ it under lawful government order.
  - lilyball 6y ago
    That's true, and most cloud solutions also do the same thing as Apple and retain the keys necessary to regain access to the account.
- lifeisstillgood 6y ago
  These days I have enough other apple devices tied in (family settings etc) that i could lose one device and still be authenticated via another I think the secure enclave is the winning technology - whilst not everyone has to have a smartphone in the brave new digital world,everyone will have to have at least one secure enclave (HSM probably tied to biometrics)
lh7777 6y ago
This is frustrating, but it doesn't bother me too much on the iPhone -- I can just not use iCloud and periodically back up my phone locally. I don't really need to sync anything but photos because I don't create or edit documents on my phone. On the other hand, the iPad is a very capable device for content creation, but I couldn't find a reliable way to sync files that doesn't leave them readable to Apple or another party. That'd probably be OK if I could use an iPad as my only computer, but I can't (or won't) today.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  I don't really need to sync anything but photos because I don't create or edit documents on my phone. This is one of the key points. You can plug an iPhone into almost any modern PC, Apple or otherwise, and download the photos and videos. But you can't do the same for other types of data without using one or more of an Apple computer, specialist software or iCloud. The middle option, which is the only one not entirely controlled by Apple itself, has a long history of attempts that proved not to work entirely reliably or last for long. And as you say, for an iPad, where perhaps more users want to do substantial creative work, the same issues apply. I understand that Apple's current business model is heavily tied to locking customers into its ecosystem, but that does become a significant problem for people who just want a nice phone but also respect for their privacy, and I do think Apple should be called out for this just as I think it's fair to praise them for being much better on broader privacy issues than most of their competitors.
  - throwaway5792 6y ago
    What do you mean other types of data?
    - Silhouette 6y ago
      Almost anything else. iOS devices use the same protocols as things like DSLR cameras to allow plug-and-play access to download photos and videos (unless, ironically, you have iTunes software installed and it gets in the way). However, there is no equivalent to let you browse and locally download messages, notes, creative work, or any other type of data you might have on your phone with using one of the channels I mentioned before.
theferalrobot 6y ago
Most app backups in icloud are end to end encrypted. If you choose to backup your entire device in icloud (rather than automatically on your local mac) that backup is not end to end encrypted. I agree it should be but that doesn’t seem like a huge deal especially considering the alternative platform (android) doesn’t even have a comprehensive backup solution (only individual apps via gdrive etc).
- Silhouette 6y ago
  I agree it should be but that doesn’t seem like a huge deal I respectfully disagree. Encouraging people to upload data that will probably be very personal in some cases, such as photos, videos or messages they store on their phone, without proper safeguards is at best negligent and/or abusive depending on your point of view. The fact that the other major mobile platform is even worse doesn't make the former situation any better.

GoToRO 6y ago

“Apple isn’t perfect.“ That’s the understatement of the year! Today I just found out that iOS will not show you the size of the videos for example. And there is no easy way to get it.

gigatexal 6y ago

100% true for me and my family too. The vertically integrated software where most things just work and work well together is nice too

jchook 6y ago

I definitely see some questionable privacy practices by Apple... - While "10x less", iPhone still sends your private information (such as location) to Apple on a regular basis[1]. - Apple encrypts iCloud backups with a key they control, not end-to-end[2]. This means that Apple can decrypt and inspect your phone and computer backups. - According to the article, iOS developers can use their "new privacy-focused ad framework" to "allow anonymously retrieving data without getting a hold of the user or specific information". I don't fully understand that sentence but it sounds a lot like Apple trying to compete directly with Goog + FB in the advertising industry. - Hardware made in China[3]. 1. https://digitalcontentnext.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/DCN-Google-Data-Collection-Paper.pdf https://digitalcontentnext.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/DC... 2. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 3. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-hack-how-china-used-a-tiny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-h...

s1k3s 6y ago
Isn’t point 2 a consequence of the law that they have to follow? Don’t know about rest of the world but I think in EU they are forced to disclose your personal information to the government if asked to do so. This is also in their privacy policy.
- threeseed 6y ago
  I think this is definitely the case. And as iCloud is a global service they really have to cater for the lowest common denominator.
- triceratops 6y ago
  Then they could offer that feature just in those jurisdictions.
rargulati 6y ago
Aren't there ways of verifying the integrity of the hardware via software on boot?
6y ago

smart_jackal 6y ago

Most importantly, their interests directly align with users actually buying their products, not viewing ads on their products. Thus, they have a sort of vested interest in ensuring privacy (which is a product feature). The same cannot be said of Google's Android.

username_my1 6y ago

What I love about this move is that it's a double edged sword against google. ether google have to 1. cannibalize their main source of revenue and implement similar feature on Android and thus becoming a weaker competitor. 2. don't follow apple and let apple eat more of the smartphone market of people who worry about their privacy. Apple doesn't make money from Ads, so it's strange that they waited this long to do this.

searchableguy 6y ago
> The company had the potential to raise revenue by a third every year, from an estimated $2 billion currently to $11 billion in 2025. Source: https://in.reuters.com/article/apple-advertising/apple-could-raise-annual-ad-income-to-11-billion-by-2025-jpmorgan-idINKBN1XP1AX https://in.reuters.com/article/apple-advertising/apple-could...