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You seem to be trivializing css as something static you just have to deal with. This maybe true for 99% of websites but css has had more innovation in the last

by egfx 6y ago

You seem to be trivializing css as something static you just have to deal with. This maybe true for 99% of websites but css has had more innovation in the last few years than anything else. And much of it hasn’t reached textbooks. For example css3 functions and now being able to mix these new techniques in undiscovered ways. CSS requires a very nimble and creative mindset. That maybe why backend devs usually are very dismissive of it. By the way I became a frontend developer after I spent many years as a backend dev. My background is in Php and Perl.

IggleSniggle 6y ago
Have you looked at Definitive CSS? It's up to date and a massive 1000 page tomb of encyclopedic knowledge and guidance. Anyone who digests that entire thing is not being dismissive of CSS. Digesting that is taking CSS more seriously than most people take learning new programming languages...which is appropriate! Because with CSS, you not only need to learn the language, you are effectively learning something like a language and a framework at the same time. Lots of folks learn the language minimally, piecemeal, on an "as needed basis," and end up wasting a lot of time because they aren't aware of the larger features and how they can be fit together. Most folks do the equivalent of learning about goto statements, variable declarations, and arithmetic operators, and figuring you have everything you need to do good programming work. Technically, you do have everything you need. And with a decade of work under your belt using those things, you can build some amazing and good robust systems. It's also easy to build total junk that nobody can understand but you. Perl, of course, is also infamous for having this quality.
- egfx 6y ago
  > Technically, you do have everything you need. And with a decade of work under your belt using those things, you can build some amazing and good robust systems. It's also easy to build total junk that nobody can understand but you. This is what’s beautiful about the frontend. It’s “magic” and underneath in code speak it may be ugly but the work speaks for itself. Arguably that is only if you own it and maintain it. > Lots of folks learn the language minimally, piecemeal, on an "as needed basis," and end up wasting a lot of time because they aren't aware of the larger features and how they can be fit together. The way I see it, learning about all the ingredients in a recipe will not teach you how to cook. In css techniques are unearthed by a small handful of css artisans and it’s not about learning css itself in 99% of the cases. It’s about digging and finding the best ideas on GitHub, stack and codepen. And hacker news.
  - IggleSniggle 6y ago
    Or, you know, using a well vetted, well organized resource that has already done all the digging and collating of techniques and organized into a well structured Definitive Guide.
- megous 6y ago
  > Have you looked at Definitive CSS? It's up to date ... Not really, it doesn't talk about custom properties, inline svg, how to style them, etc. All very useful these days, if you want to allow color theming for your web app and not use hacks like custom fonts for icons... And custom properties are around since 2014 at the very least.

by egfx 6y ago

IggleSniggle 6y ago

Have you looked at Definitive CSS? It's up to date and a massive 1000 page tomb of encyclopedic knowledge and guidance. Anyone who digests that entire thing is not being dismissive of CSS. Digesting that is taking CSS more seriously than most people take learning new programming languages...which is appropriate! Because with CSS, you not only need to learn the language, you are effectively learning something like a language and a framework at the same time. Lots of folks learn the language minimally, piecemeal, on an "as needed basis," and end up wasting a lot of time because they aren't aware of the larger features and how they can be fit together. Most folks do the equivalent of learning about goto statements, variable declarations, and arithmetic operators, and figuring you have everything you need to do good programming work. Technically, you do have everything you need. And with a decade of work under your belt using those things, you can build some amazing and good robust systems. It's also easy to build total junk that nobody can understand but you. Perl, of course, is also infamous for having this quality.

egfx 6y ago
> Technically, you do have everything you need. And with a decade of work under your belt using those things, you can build some amazing and good robust systems. It's also easy to build total junk that nobody can understand but you. This is what’s beautiful about the frontend. It’s “magic” and underneath in code speak it may be ugly but the work speaks for itself. Arguably that is only if you own it and maintain it. > Lots of folks learn the language minimally, piecemeal, on an "as needed basis," and end up wasting a lot of time because they aren't aware of the larger features and how they can be fit together. The way I see it, learning about all the ingredients in a recipe will not teach you how to cook. In css techniques are unearthed by a small handful of css artisans and it’s not about learning css itself in 99% of the cases. It’s about digging and finding the best ideas on GitHub, stack and codepen. And hacker news.
- IggleSniggle 6y ago
  Or, you know, using a well vetted, well organized resource that has already done all the digging and collating of techniques and organized into a well structured Definitive Guide.
megous 6y ago
> Have you looked at Definitive CSS? It's up to date ... Not really, it doesn't talk about custom properties, inline svg, how to style them, etc. All very useful these days, if you want to allow color theming for your web app and not use hacks like custom fonts for icons... And custom properties are around since 2014 at the very least.