4 ms·

I was thinking, that in a scary way, the psychiatric diagnosis for people investigating corruption in Russia or CCP does start to make sense. It is such an ext

I was thinking, that in a scary way, the psychiatric diagnosis for people investigating corruption in Russia or CCP does start to make sense. It is such an extreme risk to go against these regimes, both to their and their relatives' safety and livelihoods that it makes their actions seem insane. Extreme risk-taking without regard for consequence, suicidal tendencies, paranoia towards the government, unbounded anxiety. At the same time, where they live – all of these are reasonable reactions of a thinking human being, consistent with their environment. I want to stress, that this is more of an ironic observation. I admire the bravery of such people and I despise the current Russian regime, it was the biggest reason for my emigration.

gumby 6y ago
BTW this is why arrest records are public in the USA. The British would arrest people and their families and friends couldn’t tell what had happened, so as a result you “can’t” be secretly arrested. I put “can’t” in quotes because of course there are a bunch of ways the rules get bent and twisted, but I suspect the number of arrests unreported by 24 hours is pretty close to nil. OTOH the system has adapted to this constraint: since they have to be reported anyway the police have inverted the sense and adopted the “perp walk”, which prejudices the accused’s chances in court right up front. And of course extrajudicial punishment skips the whole apparatus in the first place...but that can happen anywhere.
- unreal37 6y ago
  Reminds me of people who were arrested and convicted of "resisting arrest" and no other charges. That should not be a thing. If you're being arrested and the charges are never laid, or are later dropped, resisting arrest should be dropped too.
  - gumby 6y ago
    Yes, the US has a number of other mechanisms that are illegal/immoral in other countries such as the “charge stacking” you describe, plea bargains (there such an asymmetry in power that they are hardly “bargains”), and prison labor. Not picking on the US here: the inverse is true as well: the adversarial trial system and juries, separation of prosecution and the judiciary, etc imho provide stronger protection for the accused. Societies are complex and the design is far from understood.
- s5300 6y ago
  Yeah, but you can literally be 72 hour psych holded with absolutely zero contact with the outside world by the decision of a single, simple psychiatrist. That's arguably worse than being secretly arrested.
  - gumby 6y ago
    Yeah that’s a good example of extrajudicial punishment. Well, a terrible example, but “terrible” in the sense of its abuse. I wonder how 72 hours can be constitutional when arraignment is typically supposed to be 24. Perhaps it’s like fingerprints, where assumptions rather than science dominate. The idea of a brief psych hold is reasonable on some platonic level (I’ve had friends have psychotic breaks who were far better off not being in a conventional prison) but the reality, and the opportunity for abuse are far from that ideal.
    - R0b0t1 6y ago
      There's stories/news articles about psych facilities and hospitals that feed them with patients to get government money and insurance money. Then people are kicked out at the end of two weeks. Some judges are complicit in this, they go along with whatever the medical staff says.
  - Mirioron 6y ago
    The amazing thing is that these kinds of rules that allow for involuntary commitment are pretty standard in the West. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_commitment_internationally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_commitment_interna...
  - hutzlibu 6y ago
    Not only this, but you can also get forced medication. And once inside a mental clinic, it can be hard to get out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment
- catalogia 6y ago
  Please be aware that presently the American federal government seems to be systematically arresting some protesters without doing any paperwork (and therefore no public record, except for the testimony and video of victims and witnesses.) Here is a HN discussion about it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23866926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23866926 | https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unmarked-vehicles-portland-protesters/ https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unm... > Pettibone said he was put into a cell. Soon after, two officers came in to read him his Miranda rights. They didn’t tell him why he was being arrested. He said they asked him if he wanted to waive his rights and answer some questions, but Pettibone declined and said he wanted a lawyer. The interview was terminated, and about 90 minutes later he was released. He said he did not receive any paperwork, citation or record of his arrest. [...] In a statement, the U.S. Marshals Service declined to comment on the practice of using unmarked vehicles, but said their officers had not arrested Pettibone. “All United States Marshals Service arrestees have public records of arrest documenting their charges. Our agency did not arrest or detain Mark James Pettibone.” There are also a few videos confirming at least some of those details; namely camouflaged men, faces covered, pulling protesters into unmarked vehicles. In one of the videos, the men with guns tell other protesters that they'll be shot if they try to follow the unmarked vehicle. The local PD claimed they didn't arrest anybody. https://vidmax.com/video/196124-sdpd-toss-protester-in-unmarked-van-tell-protesters-if-you-follow-us-you-will-be-shot https://vidmax.com/video/196124-sdpd-toss-protester-in-unmar... > One cop was heard saying "If you follow us, you will be shot." San Diego police reported the protest was the biggest and most peaceful protest in San Diego so far, and nobody was arrested.
  - gumby 6y ago
    This is another solid example of adapting to the constraints, a particularly chilling one.
maze-le 6y ago
Yes, definitly, there are places in the world where such relevations are much worse with much more dire consequences -- I have nothing but utmost respect for people that still don't bow under such pressure -- I am sure I couldn't do it. I was born in the eastern part of Germany, when it was still called "GDR". Most people here still have quite some "paranoia towards the government", pretty much understandably so. I was too young to experience it myself but I know a lot of stories from my family members on how life was in these times, especially how you had to maintain a double persona in public life and be always on guard on what to tell people and whom to trust.

gumby 6y ago

BTW this is why arrest records are public in the USA. The British would arrest people and their families and friends couldn’t tell what had happened, so as a result you “can’t” be secretly arrested. I put “can’t” in quotes because of course there are a bunch of ways the rules get bent and twisted, but I suspect the number of arrests unreported by 24 hours is pretty close to nil. OTOH the system has adapted to this constraint: since they have to be reported anyway the police have inverted the sense and adopted the “perp walk”, which prejudices the accused’s chances in court right up front. And of course extrajudicial punishment skips the whole apparatus in the first place...but that can happen anywhere.

unreal37 6y ago
Reminds me of people who were arrested and convicted of "resisting arrest" and no other charges. That should not be a thing. If you're being arrested and the charges are never laid, or are later dropped, resisting arrest should be dropped too.
- gumby 6y ago
  Yes, the US has a number of other mechanisms that are illegal/immoral in other countries such as the “charge stacking” you describe, plea bargains (there such an asymmetry in power that they are hardly “bargains”), and prison labor. Not picking on the US here: the inverse is true as well: the adversarial trial system and juries, separation of prosecution and the judiciary, etc imho provide stronger protection for the accused. Societies are complex and the design is far from understood.
s5300 6y ago
Yeah, but you can literally be 72 hour psych holded with absolutely zero contact with the outside world by the decision of a single, simple psychiatrist. That's arguably worse than being secretly arrested.
- gumby 6y ago
  Yeah that’s a good example of extrajudicial punishment. Well, a terrible example, but “terrible” in the sense of its abuse. I wonder how 72 hours can be constitutional when arraignment is typically supposed to be 24. Perhaps it’s like fingerprints, where assumptions rather than science dominate. The idea of a brief psych hold is reasonable on some platonic level (I’ve had friends have psychotic breaks who were far better off not being in a conventional prison) but the reality, and the opportunity for abuse are far from that ideal.
  - R0b0t1 6y ago
    There's stories/news articles about psych facilities and hospitals that feed them with patients to get government money and insurance money. Then people are kicked out at the end of two weeks. Some judges are complicit in this, they go along with whatever the medical staff says.
- Mirioron 6y ago
  The amazing thing is that these kinds of rules that allow for involuntary commitment are pretty standard in the West. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_commitment_internationally https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_commitment_interna...
- hutzlibu 6y ago
  Not only this, but you can also get forced medication. And once inside a mental clinic, it can be hard to get out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment
catalogia 6y ago
Please be aware that presently the American federal government seems to be systematically arresting some protesters without doing any paperwork (and therefore no public record, except for the testimony and video of victims and witnesses.) Here is a HN discussion about it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23866926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23866926 | https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unmarked-vehicles-portland-protesters/ https://www.opb.org/news/article/federal-law-enforcement-unm... > Pettibone said he was put into a cell. Soon after, two officers came in to read him his Miranda rights. They didn’t tell him why he was being arrested. He said they asked him if he wanted to waive his rights and answer some questions, but Pettibone declined and said he wanted a lawyer. The interview was terminated, and about 90 minutes later he was released. He said he did not receive any paperwork, citation or record of his arrest. [...] In a statement, the U.S. Marshals Service declined to comment on the practice of using unmarked vehicles, but said their officers had not arrested Pettibone. “All United States Marshals Service arrestees have public records of arrest documenting their charges. Our agency did not arrest or detain Mark James Pettibone.” There are also a few videos confirming at least some of those details; namely camouflaged men, faces covered, pulling protesters into unmarked vehicles. In one of the videos, the men with guns tell other protesters that they'll be shot if they try to follow the unmarked vehicle. The local PD claimed they didn't arrest anybody. https://vidmax.com/video/196124-sdpd-toss-protester-in-unmarked-van-tell-protesters-if-you-follow-us-you-will-be-shot https://vidmax.com/video/196124-sdpd-toss-protester-in-unmar... > One cop was heard saying "If you follow us, you will be shot." San Diego police reported the protest was the biggest and most peaceful protest in San Diego so far, and nobody was arrested.
- gumby 6y ago
  This is another solid example of adapting to the constraints, a particularly chilling one.

maze-le 6y ago

Yes, definitly, there are places in the world where such relevations are much worse with much more dire consequences -- I have nothing but utmost respect for people that still don't bow under such pressure -- I am sure I couldn't do it. I was born in the eastern part of Germany, when it was still called "GDR". Most people here still have quite some "paranoia towards the government", pretty much understandably so. I was too young to experience it myself but I know a lot of stories from my family members on how life was in these times, especially how you had to maintain a double persona in public life and be always on guard on what to tell people and whom to trust.