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At the end of the day, 1. Apple users are the ones that cannot browse without adblocker. Safari is not as good as ublock-origin 2. Most Apple users use google

At the end of the day, 1. Apple users are the ones that cannot browse without adblocker. Safari is not as good as ublock-origin 2. Most Apple users use google maps. > Not a fan of Apple, but they seem to be serious about privacy If they are honest then they can remove the default search engine from Google to DDG or whatever. They get billions from Google for default search engine. https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/1/21310591/apple-google-search-engine-safari-iphone-deal-billions-regulation-antitrust https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/1/21310591/apple-google-sear... BTW, Apple need to release a good search/maps product before complaining. 3. Even the cheapest iPhone cannot be afforded by > 80 % world. They do not care about >80 % world popln? They too need smartphones.

kohtatsu 6y ago
iPhones have longevity. The iPhone 5s from September 2013 has been receiving regular security updates, the latest being iOS 12.4.8 on Wednesday. It was the first 64-bit phone, and first iPhone (first phone?) with a Secure Enclave. They can be had for <$100 in good condition.
- omnifischer 6y ago
  BTW, every one says this - but nobody uses it like a daily driver. Yes, it will work as a spare - with just one app - like whatsapp - but for many poor - they need 1. Uber or Ola 2. Facebook or WhatsApp 3. linkedin to whatever local app 4. youtube Why dont you try to use it for a week with all your existing apps? If it works as good - why would anyone buy newer?
  - Sephiroth87 6y ago
    My partner used a freshly cleaned 6 for a month due to a cracked screen on their usual phone, and it was perfectly fine.
  - manicdee 6y ago
    My iPhone 6 is my daily driver. You should try using it before telling people it doesn’t work.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    None of these apps are essential even in the developed world where anyone who uses Uber regularly can probably afford a newer iPhone, these apps also run just fine on a 5s/6 which can be found for under $150 without much issues.
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    Literally millions of people use these phones as their "daily driver." They work perfectly well. Maybe people are still using them from when they were new, other people buy them used, or buy the iPhone SE, for exactly the reason you suggest: they don't need the latest and greatest. Most people don't need the latest and greatest.
  - dunnevens 6y ago
    I'm still using a 6s Plus 128GB. I keep thinking about getting a new one, but this one still works great. Haven't found a slow app yet. Everything is still responsive. Screen is still scratch free. And it's going to get iOS 14 this year. Even though it was relatively expensive when new, it's probably been one of the best values in tech I've ever seen. And yeah, it's a daily driver. Use it for everything.
  - kohtatsu 6y ago
    iPhones very strictly limit background processing. This isn't a problem whatsoever, Uber doesn't take up 16GB of storage.
  - jumelles 6y ago
    I exclusively used a 1st gen SE until a few months ago. All of my dozens of installed apps worked great - and still do in fact.
- Yetanfou 6y ago
  So do Android devices, I'm using a Samsung SIII from 2012 as 'work phone' when doing rough work on the farm etc. The device runs Android 9 (LineageOS 16), I have not felt the need to update it to 10 yet. It has a user-replaceable battery but since it still lasts for about 2 days of normal use (playing around 8 hours of audio per day) I have not yet replaced it. I did put in a larger microSD card to support a larger off-line audio library. Neither would be possible with the iPhone, no matter which version.
  - kube-system 6y ago
    Upgrading your OS is only part of your software security footprint. The unlocked bootloaders/firmware running on many old devices are full of unpatched security holes and are often susceptible to attacks where physical access is available. These security holes are a common method to install third-party ROMs on some devices.
    - Yetanfou 6y ago
      Yes, that is after all what makes it possible to jailbreak nearly all iPhone models using something like Checkra1n.
      - kube-system 6y ago
        The vast majority of vulnerabilities used for jailbreaks and for Android unlocks are not attacks on code running in ROM and can be fixed OTA.
        Yetanfou 6y ago
        Yes, although some can not, the vulnerability which Checkra1n [1] exploits being an example of such. In this case I consider this to be a good thing since it makes it possible to circumvent vendor-imposed restrictions. I like to be the one who gets to decide what runs on my hardware, I see no need to hand off this responsibility to any vendor no matter how virtuous they portray themselves (or are portrayed as such by others). I really don't understand the fawning over Apple Inc. when it comes to their claims of supporting privacy, I trust them no more nor less than I trust other similar companies. I know I can keep my devices ad-free because I am the one who decides what gets to run and what does not, which software gets network access and which does not, what goes through the firewall and what not. I also know what software gets access to which OS features and what does not. Can this veil of security be circumvented by a serious opponent? Sure, there are likely to be bugs in the software and holes in the veil, no more or less than there are such bugs and holes in other systems. I deem the chance of a serious opponent singling out me and my devices as slim so for now I assume I can use my devices without being mined by the ad-tech industry. I don't get ads on any of them. [1] https://cydia-app.com/checkrain/ https://cydia-app.com/checkrain/
- scarface74 6y ago
  The iPhone 4s from 2011 received an update around than a year ago.
occamschainsaw 6y ago
I have been using adblockers[1,2] on mobile as well as desktop safari for quite some time now. 1. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wipr/id1030595027 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wipr/id1030595027 2. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/quiet-content-blocker/id1441525727 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/quiet-content-blocker/id144152...
- captn3m0 6y ago
  Do any of these content blockers work outside of Safari? (I use Firefox on iOS)
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - sirn 6y ago
    WKWebView cannot use any of Safari extensions, unfortunately. I just use DNSCloak connecting to my private VPS instance to do adblocking over DNS which kinda works fine, but leaves out a lot of blank canvas in the page.
    - fwn 6y ago
      Biggest drawback is that DNS based content blocking has no way to apply cosmetic filters. Ads on platforms that deliver their ads embedded and from their first party domains (think google, facebook, reddit, youtube, instagram, linkedin, amazon, etc.) can not be blocked this way.
      - captn3m0 6y ago
        The only two places I see ads on my phone (currently using NextDNS, earlier DNSCloak) are Amazon sponsored listings inside the Amazon app, and Twitter sponsored content in Firefox.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      SafariViewController can though and that’s what my RSS reader uses.
mvanbaak 6y ago
> They do not care about >80 % world popln? They too need smartphones. nobody needs a smartphone. It's a gadget.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  You seem to be implying it's a frivolous luxury that delivers little real value. That's not the case. Much has been written on telephony in the developing world.
  - mvanbaak 6y ago
    Telephony can be handled by dumb phones
    - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
      A smartphone is far more capable than a 'dumb' mobile phone, especially to someone who doesn't own any other computer.
    - izacus 6y ago
      Telephony is dead. These days in many places cannot get a job or function without access to email or chat. In a lot of non-rich markets the smartphone is the cheapest option to gain access to these communication systems. We're not in 1998 anymore where people phone you.
      - dividedbyzero 6y ago
        > In a lot of non-rich markets the smartphone is the cheapest option to gain access to these communication systems. I'd say that's nowadays true for richer parts of the world as well.
        izacus 6y ago
        Yeah - although at least according to analytics a lot of western world people also own a computer. In many asian/african areas most of the population only has a smartphone to access the internet.
AdrianB1 6y ago
Even the cheapest Mercedes Benz car cannot be afforded by > 80% of the world. The cheapest Rolex cannot be afforded by > 99% of the world. They do care about the world population, but they don't have to serve them, even if they have needs. Having needs satisfied is not someone else's obligation.
- omnifischer 6y ago
  Smartphone is a necessity. For example, without covid app you cannot go out in many countries. Yes, most people do not need Mercedes- agree. You can live without mercedes but not without smartphone. Paying for services; employer; calling people; if you swap 3 jobs then you are informed by your boss through WhatsApp or fb (at least in parts of 3rd world - I went through that in the last years). Of course, there is no obligation for anyone to care about others - let alone mega corporation. Agree to your point. What about removing Google search from iPhone to demonstrate honesty about privacy?
  - AdrianB1 6y ago
    You are making 3 arguments, all not proven: 1. People cannot live without smartphones. I wonder how the past 10,000 were: how people made phone calls 100 years without smartphones, how they paid with card or cash, how to live without Facebook or WhatsApp. It must be terrible to be so entitled. 2. When people need smartphones, they should afford iPhones. Why a $100 Huawei is not enough? 3. When people have needs, someone is obligated to satisfy it. Oh, that sex maniac across the street ...
    - dmitriid 6y ago
      Bullet point one: in the past 10 000 years no one had so such info and requirements to be online. Calling someone is not even on the priority list of a smartphone. But I can't access easily half of services (including banks) without an internet-connected device. Which is almost invariably a smartphone. Bullet point 2: older versions of iPhones can be had for that money
    - aspaviento 6y ago
pwinnski 6y ago
1. Huh? I use ad-blockers on iOS. 2. I don't use Google Maps. People can choose to use Google Maps, sure. So? 2b. I use DDG as my search engine. A default is just a default. Are you suggesting people use Google's Android, where the default is... somehow... not Google? 3. The cheapest brand-new iPhone is $399 from Apple in the US. That's full-price directly from the manufacturer. It is super-easy to pick up second-hand phones for much less than that. I see them for $100 very frequently. People use iPhones in nearly every country of the world, so it seems at least some people can afford them. Note that your complaints include both that people ignore the default mapping application to use Google's, and that the default search engine is Google's. Seems silly to argue both for and against defaults.
nerdjon 6y ago
In regards to maps... I would like to actually see number on that. I personally use Apple Maps almost exclusively and don't look back. It does everything I need. Apple Maps had a very shaky start, but its just fine compared to google maps (with the added benefit of not being a privacy nightmare)
- VRay 6y ago
  The only complaint I have about Apple Maps so far is that it uses Yelp for review information and photos. I wouldn't mind Yelp, except they try to force you to install their app so they can spy on you instead of just letting you view a mobile site. I'm sure their crappy app is just a wrapper around a mobile site anyway, so it's doubly frustrating
- Waterfall 6y ago
  Sent my friend to a wrong location as recently as a year ago. Won't chance that again. This is in Chicago not corn field in middle of nowhere.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> 2. Most Apple users use google maps. The stats I've seen don't back this up. Maybe in some countries? Certainly not "Most" overall, and Google doesn't even have a third of iOS users in the US. > Apple need to release a good search/maps product before complaining. Duck Duck Go does just fine 99% of the time. Apple Maps likewise in most regions at this point. Google Search has gotten worse over the years as they've chased revenue while its competitors (DDG primarily) have gotten better. Likewise, Apple Maps have improved at a much faster pace over the past few years and closed the gap. Where Apple Maps used to lag quite a bit, they are now extremely close in functionality. A lot of people prefer the Apple Maps interface. > If they are honest then they can remove the default search engine from Google to DDG or whatever. While this is a ding against Apple's privacy policy, it isn't a great argument when you consider the worst "Privacy issue" Apple has is the fact that in one place they touch Google by default. If Google is bad for privacy as you suggest here, then by default, having a platform which only touches Google in one easily swappable place is vastly better than a platform that is neck deep in Google's anti-privacy Shit. You can't have it both ways here.
- selykg 6y ago
  I'm far from representative of all users, but I can't be bothered to use Google Maps anymore. The various integrations that Apple Maps has with Apple Watch and all the improvements it has received over the years makes it just as good if not better than Google Maps for a vast majority of my usage.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    You've likely given this far more thought than most people. The majority of people just use what's installed by default and don't ever even look at Google. Defaults are powerful. This is doubly true now that Apple Maps is as good as it's gotten.
    - Waterfall 6y ago
      Won't use it after it sent my friend to a wrong location and won't use it after it gave me bad coordinates. New iOS will let you change defaults don't remember if it has maps to swap.

kohtatsu 6y ago

iPhones have longevity. The iPhone 5s from September 2013 has been receiving regular security updates, the latest being iOS 12.4.8 on Wednesday. It was the first 64-bit phone, and first iPhone (first phone?) with a Secure Enclave. They can be had for <$100 in good condition.

omnifischer 6y ago
BTW, every one says this - but nobody uses it like a daily driver. Yes, it will work as a spare - with just one app - like whatsapp - but for many poor - they need 1. Uber or Ola 2. Facebook or WhatsApp 3. linkedin to whatever local app 4. youtube Why dont you try to use it for a week with all your existing apps? If it works as good - why would anyone buy newer?
- Sephiroth87 6y ago
  My partner used a freshly cleaned 6 for a month due to a cracked screen on their usual phone, and it was perfectly fine.
- manicdee 6y ago
  My iPhone 6 is my daily driver. You should try using it before telling people it doesn’t work.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  None of these apps are essential even in the developed world where anyone who uses Uber regularly can probably afford a newer iPhone, these apps also run just fine on a 5s/6 which can be found for under $150 without much issues.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  Literally millions of people use these phones as their "daily driver." They work perfectly well. Maybe people are still using them from when they were new, other people buy them used, or buy the iPhone SE, for exactly the reason you suggest: they don't need the latest and greatest. Most people don't need the latest and greatest.
- dunnevens 6y ago
  I'm still using a 6s Plus 128GB. I keep thinking about getting a new one, but this one still works great. Haven't found a slow app yet. Everything is still responsive. Screen is still scratch free. And it's going to get iOS 14 this year. Even though it was relatively expensive when new, it's probably been one of the best values in tech I've ever seen. And yeah, it's a daily driver. Use it for everything.
- kohtatsu 6y ago
  iPhones very strictly limit background processing. This isn't a problem whatsoever, Uber doesn't take up 16GB of storage.
- jumelles 6y ago
  I exclusively used a 1st gen SE until a few months ago. All of my dozens of installed apps worked great - and still do in fact.
Yetanfou 6y ago
So do Android devices, I'm using a Samsung SIII from 2012 as 'work phone' when doing rough work on the farm etc. The device runs Android 9 (LineageOS 16), I have not felt the need to update it to 10 yet. It has a user-replaceable battery but since it still lasts for about 2 days of normal use (playing around 8 hours of audio per day) I have not yet replaced it. I did put in a larger microSD card to support a larger off-line audio library. Neither would be possible with the iPhone, no matter which version.
- kube-system 6y ago
  Upgrading your OS is only part of your software security footprint. The unlocked bootloaders/firmware running on many old devices are full of unpatched security holes and are often susceptible to attacks where physical access is available. These security holes are a common method to install third-party ROMs on some devices.
  - Yetanfou 6y ago
    Yes, that is after all what makes it possible to jailbreak nearly all iPhone models using something like Checkra1n.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      The vast majority of vulnerabilities used for jailbreaks and for Android unlocks are not attacks on code running in ROM and can be fixed OTA.
      - Yetanfou 6y ago
        Yes, although some can not, the vulnerability which Checkra1n [1] exploits being an example of such. In this case I consider this to be a good thing since it makes it possible to circumvent vendor-imposed restrictions. I like to be the one who gets to decide what runs on my hardware, I see no need to hand off this responsibility to any vendor no matter how virtuous they portray themselves (or are portrayed as such by others). I really don't understand the fawning over Apple Inc. when it comes to their claims of supporting privacy, I trust them no more nor less than I trust other similar companies. I know I can keep my devices ad-free because I am the one who decides what gets to run and what does not, which software gets network access and which does not, what goes through the firewall and what not. I also know what software gets access to which OS features and what does not. Can this veil of security be circumvented by a serious opponent? Sure, there are likely to be bugs in the software and holes in the veil, no more or less than there are such bugs and holes in other systems. I deem the chance of a serious opponent singling out me and my devices as slim so for now I assume I can use my devices without being mined by the ad-tech industry. I don't get ads on any of them. [1] https://cydia-app.com/checkrain/ https://cydia-app.com/checkrain/
scarface74 6y ago
The iPhone 4s from 2011 received an update around than a year ago.

occamschainsaw 6y ago

I have been using adblockers[1,2] on mobile as well as desktop safari for quite some time now. 1. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wipr/id1030595027 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wipr/id1030595027 2. https://apps.apple.com/us/app/quiet-content-blocker/id1441525727 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/quiet-content-blocker/id144152...

captn3m0 6y ago
Do any of these content blockers work outside of Safari? (I use Firefox on iOS)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- sirn 6y ago
  WKWebView cannot use any of Safari extensions, unfortunately. I just use DNSCloak connecting to my private VPS instance to do adblocking over DNS which kinda works fine, but leaves out a lot of blank canvas in the page.
  - fwn 6y ago
    Biggest drawback is that DNS based content blocking has no way to apply cosmetic filters. Ads on platforms that deliver their ads embedded and from their first party domains (think google, facebook, reddit, youtube, instagram, linkedin, amazon, etc.) can not be blocked this way.
    - captn3m0 6y ago
      The only two places I see ads on my phone (currently using NextDNS, earlier DNSCloak) are Amazon sponsored listings inside the Amazon app, and Twitter sponsored content in Firefox.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    SafariViewController can though and that’s what my RSS reader uses.

mvanbaak 6y ago

> They do not care about >80 % world popln? They too need smartphones. nobody needs a smartphone. It's a gadget.

MaxBarraclough 6y ago
You seem to be implying it's a frivolous luxury that delivers little real value. That's not the case. Much has been written on telephony in the developing world.
- mvanbaak 6y ago
  Telephony can be handled by dumb phones
  - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
    A smartphone is far more capable than a 'dumb' mobile phone, especially to someone who doesn't own any other computer.
  - izacus 6y ago
    Telephony is dead. These days in many places cannot get a job or function without access to email or chat. In a lot of non-rich markets the smartphone is the cheapest option to gain access to these communication systems. We're not in 1998 anymore where people phone you.
    - dividedbyzero 6y ago
      > In a lot of non-rich markets the smartphone is the cheapest option to gain access to these communication systems. I'd say that's nowadays true for richer parts of the world as well.
      - izacus 6y ago
        Yeah - although at least according to analytics a lot of western world people also own a computer. In many asian/african areas most of the population only has a smartphone to access the internet.

AdrianB1 6y ago

Even the cheapest Mercedes Benz car cannot be afforded by > 80% of the world. The cheapest Rolex cannot be afforded by > 99% of the world. They do care about the world population, but they don't have to serve them, even if they have needs. Having needs satisfied is not someone else's obligation.

omnifischer 6y ago
Smartphone is a necessity. For example, without covid app you cannot go out in many countries. Yes, most people do not need Mercedes- agree. You can live without mercedes but not without smartphone. Paying for services; employer; calling people; if you swap 3 jobs then you are informed by your boss through WhatsApp or fb (at least in parts of 3rd world - I went through that in the last years). Of course, there is no obligation for anyone to care about others - let alone mega corporation. Agree to your point. What about removing Google search from iPhone to demonstrate honesty about privacy?
- AdrianB1 6y ago
  You are making 3 arguments, all not proven: 1. People cannot live without smartphones. I wonder how the past 10,000 were: how people made phone calls 100 years without smartphones, how they paid with card or cash, how to live without Facebook or WhatsApp. It must be terrible to be so entitled. 2. When people need smartphones, they should afford iPhones. Why a $100 Huawei is not enough? 3. When people have needs, someone is obligated to satisfy it. Oh, that sex maniac across the street ...
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    Bullet point one: in the past 10 000 years no one had so such info and requirements to be online. Calling someone is not even on the priority list of a smartphone. But I can't access easily half of services (including banks) without an internet-connected device. Which is almost invariably a smartphone. Bullet point 2: older versions of iPhones can be had for that money
  - aspaviento 6y ago

pwinnski 6y ago

1. Huh? I use ad-blockers on iOS. 2. I don't use Google Maps. People can choose to use Google Maps, sure. So? 2b. I use DDG as my search engine. A default is just a default. Are you suggesting people use Google's Android, where the default is... somehow... not Google? 3. The cheapest brand-new iPhone is $399 from Apple in the US. That's full-price directly from the manufacturer. It is super-easy to pick up second-hand phones for much less than that. I see them for $100 very frequently. People use iPhones in nearly every country of the world, so it seems at least some people can afford them. Note that your complaints include both that people ignore the default mapping application to use Google's, and that the default search engine is Google's. Seems silly to argue both for and against defaults.

nerdjon 6y ago

In regards to maps... I would like to actually see number on that. I personally use Apple Maps almost exclusively and don't look back. It does everything I need. Apple Maps had a very shaky start, but its just fine compared to google maps (with the added benefit of not being a privacy nightmare)

VRay 6y ago
The only complaint I have about Apple Maps so far is that it uses Yelp for review information and photos. I wouldn't mind Yelp, except they try to force you to install their app so they can spy on you instead of just letting you view a mobile site. I'm sure their crappy app is just a wrapper around a mobile site anyway, so it's doubly frustrating
Waterfall 6y ago
Sent my friend to a wrong location as recently as a year ago. Won't chance that again. This is in Chicago not corn field in middle of nowhere.

ogre_codes 6y ago

> 2. Most Apple users use google maps. The stats I've seen don't back this up. Maybe in some countries? Certainly not "Most" overall, and Google doesn't even have a third of iOS users in the US. > Apple need to release a good search/maps product before complaining. Duck Duck Go does just fine 99% of the time. Apple Maps likewise in most regions at this point. Google Search has gotten worse over the years as they've chased revenue while its competitors (DDG primarily) have gotten better. Likewise, Apple Maps have improved at a much faster pace over the past few years and closed the gap. Where Apple Maps used to lag quite a bit, they are now extremely close in functionality. A lot of people prefer the Apple Maps interface. > If they are honest then they can remove the default search engine from Google to DDG or whatever. While this is a ding against Apple's privacy policy, it isn't a great argument when you consider the worst "Privacy issue" Apple has is the fact that in one place they touch Google by default. If Google is bad for privacy as you suggest here, then by default, having a platform which only touches Google in one easily swappable place is vastly better than a platform that is neck deep in Google's anti-privacy Shit. You can't have it both ways here.

selykg 6y ago
I'm far from representative of all users, but I can't be bothered to use Google Maps anymore. The various integrations that Apple Maps has with Apple Watch and all the improvements it has received over the years makes it just as good if not better than Google Maps for a vast majority of my usage.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  You've likely given this far more thought than most people. The majority of people just use what's installed by default and don't ever even look at Google. Defaults are powerful. This is doubly true now that Apple Maps is as good as it's gotten.
  - Waterfall 6y ago
    Won't use it after it sent my friend to a wrong location and won't use it after it gave me bad coordinates. New iOS will let you change defaults don't remember if it has maps to swap.