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If an entire industry dies because users were given an explicit upfront choice, because of one popup like the article says, then it wasn’t a productive industry

by SllX 6y ago

If an entire industry dies because users were given an explicit upfront choice, because of one popup like the article says, then it wasn’t a productive industry. We’ll see what really happens.

harpratap 6y ago
What will really happen is ads get more sinister and hidden. Product placements in movies will seem childish in comparison. Astro-turfing is already huge on Reddit, it will spread to all parts of media now, blurring the lines between genuine opinions and forced narrative. Ads, marketing and branding are integral part of capitalism, it's never going to go away from consumption focused societies.
- fwn 6y ago
  I don't think that there is currently any evidence that adding consent to ad tracking will have a significant impact on "sinister and hidden" advertisement. ..and it does not seem intuitive to me either, as it's a completely new set of companies launching those dubious ad formats and strategies. It's not likely that Google will start crafting a hard to scale astro turfing API or something, just because their ad network got less profitable. > Ads, marketing and branding are integral part of capitalism, it's never going to go away from consumption focused societies. Just to highlight: "Capitalism" and "consumption focused societies" aren't equivalent. ..or at least not in any common definition of the term capitalism. Historic examples of self-determined non-capitalistic societal models were highly "consumption focused" as well. I think that maybe post- or de-growth ideas are the only contemporary family of ideas I know that makes it a point not to be "consumption focused". But their ideas are, while interesting, still pretty loose on their edges.
  - harpratap 6y ago
    > and it does not seem intuitive to me either, as it's a completely new set of companies launching those dubious ad formats and strategies No it's really not. You can see it happening all the time on celebrity and "influencer" Twitter/Instagram/Tiktok. Most are pretty obvious, some are honest and use disclaimers that it's a paid ad but majority are just ads inside regular content without any disclaimers and such.
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  That would only mean context based ads are the way to go and spying on people to create ever more intricate profiles is not necessary.
  - harpratap 6y ago
    I personally prefer personalized and explicit ads over vague and hidden inside content ads, the latter seems very manipulative to me.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  This is already happening, man. Like you said, it's already huge on reddit, and is almost certainty happening on HN, too. HN is a niche demographic, but one that has an inordinate amount of wealth and technical sway. And since it's part of a startup incubator, there is no pretense of neutrality -- part of HN is openly flogging your brand.
t0mas88 6y ago
While I agree that the ad industry has taken it too far, I also disagree with your statement. Because users pay for free apps with their data, Apple isn't asking them "do you want to pay $ 0.99 or accept ad tracking?" Apple asks "Do you want to use this app without ad tracking" of course the user will choose to disable ad tracking because there is no downside to them. But if all users do that it will be the end of a lot of free apps. Data and ads are just a form of indirect payment.
- kohtatsu 6y ago
  The downside is not having personalized ads. They will still see ads. I'm vehemently against invasive tracking for personalized ads, but more than happy to see clearly marked, clean context-based ads.
  - t0mas88 6y ago
    True, but the price paid for personalized ads is about 4-5x higher than for non-personalized. So to keep their revenue free apps would either have to add a lot more ads or become less free.
  - tinus_hn 6y ago
    Most people don’t really care for the stupid ‘I bought a bike so next month I will be bombarded with bike ads’ context based ads because that is both annoyingly useless and a constant reminder an invisible spy is watching over their shoulder.
    - halostatue 6y ago
      Retargeting is the worst.
    - SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago
      It seems like most of the personalized ad systems haven't figured out that if I just bought an item the last thing I need ads for is more of that item (or different brand/models of the same thing). If it kept track that you'd bought a bike and a headlight & rack but hadn't bought saddlebags, and then showed ads for saddlebags until you bought a set they'd be somewhat useful. Instead you just get ads for more bikes and headlights & racks like you're some sort of deranged bike collector.

by SllX 6y ago

If an entire industry dies because users were given an explicit upfront choice, because of one popup like the article says, then it wasn’t a productive industry. We’ll see what really happens.

harpratap 6y ago

What will really happen is ads get more sinister and hidden. Product placements in movies will seem childish in comparison. Astro-turfing is already huge on Reddit, it will spread to all parts of media now, blurring the lines between genuine opinions and forced narrative. Ads, marketing and branding are integral part of capitalism, it's never going to go away from consumption focused societies.

fwn 6y ago
I don't think that there is currently any evidence that adding consent to ad tracking will have a significant impact on "sinister and hidden" advertisement. ..and it does not seem intuitive to me either, as it's a completely new set of companies launching those dubious ad formats and strategies. It's not likely that Google will start crafting a hard to scale astro turfing API or something, just because their ad network got less profitable. > Ads, marketing and branding are integral part of capitalism, it's never going to go away from consumption focused societies. Just to highlight: "Capitalism" and "consumption focused societies" aren't equivalent. ..or at least not in any common definition of the term capitalism. Historic examples of self-determined non-capitalistic societal models were highly "consumption focused" as well. I think that maybe post- or de-growth ideas are the only contemporary family of ideas I know that makes it a point not to be "consumption focused". But their ideas are, while interesting, still pretty loose on their edges.
- harpratap 6y ago
  > and it does not seem intuitive to me either, as it's a completely new set of companies launching those dubious ad formats and strategies No it's really not. You can see it happening all the time on celebrity and "influencer" Twitter/Instagram/Tiktok. Most are pretty obvious, some are honest and use disclaimers that it's a paid ad but majority are just ads inside regular content without any disclaimers and such.
tinus_hn 6y ago
That would only mean context based ads are the way to go and spying on people to create ever more intricate profiles is not necessary.
- harpratap 6y ago
  I personally prefer personalized and explicit ads over vague and hidden inside content ads, the latter seems very manipulative to me.
blaser-waffle 6y ago
This is already happening, man. Like you said, it's already huge on reddit, and is almost certainty happening on HN, too. HN is a niche demographic, but one that has an inordinate amount of wealth and technical sway. And since it's part of a startup incubator, there is no pretense of neutrality -- part of HN is openly flogging your brand.

t0mas88 6y ago

While I agree that the ad industry has taken it too far, I also disagree with your statement. Because users pay for free apps with their data, Apple isn't asking them "do you want to pay $ 0.99 or accept ad tracking?" Apple asks "Do you want to use this app without ad tracking" of course the user will choose to disable ad tracking because there is no downside to them. But if all users do that it will be the end of a lot of free apps. Data and ads are just a form of indirect payment.

kohtatsu 6y ago
The downside is not having personalized ads. They will still see ads. I'm vehemently against invasive tracking for personalized ads, but more than happy to see clearly marked, clean context-based ads.
- t0mas88 6y ago
  True, but the price paid for personalized ads is about 4-5x higher than for non-personalized. So to keep their revenue free apps would either have to add a lot more ads or become less free.
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  Most people don’t really care for the stupid ‘I bought a bike so next month I will be bombarded with bike ads’ context based ads because that is both annoyingly useless and a constant reminder an invisible spy is watching over their shoulder.
  - halostatue 6y ago
    Retargeting is the worst.
  - SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago
    It seems like most of the personalized ad systems haven't figured out that if I just bought an item the last thing I need ads for is more of that item (or different brand/models of the same thing). If it kept track that you'd bought a bike and a headlight & rack but hadn't bought saddlebags, and then showed ads for saddlebags until you bought a set they'd be somewhat useful. Instead you just get ads for more bikes and headlights & racks like you're some sort of deranged bike collector.