5 ms·

How should one phrase that sentence without it becoming completely confusing? Would it be offensive to say "a person with an x and y chromosome"? Even though

by jjeaff 6y ago

How should one phrase that sentence without it becoming completely confusing? Would it be offensive to say "a person with an x and y chromosome"? Even though gender is only a social construct... for some reason, taking estrogen will have totally different effects on a person, depending on that gender.

aidenn0 6y ago
It's always going to be confusing but I believe "transgender woman" is unambiguously someone assigned male gender at birth who identifies as a woman.
- Foober223 6y ago
  What if a biological male is assigned female gender at birth? Would they be transgender, or just female?
  - andykx 6y ago
    1. When is that going to happen? (Genuinely curious if it does happen) 2. It is really up to the person.
    - eggsome 6y ago
      Regarding 1: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981
  - geofft 6y ago
    That's part of the reason that "biological male" isn't a highly informative/technically-precise term, but assuming you mean something like Swyer syndrome, there isn't really a reason to worry about estrogen making them infertile, so in context using the phrase "transgender women" would have been clear regardless.
  - bashinator 6y ago
    This is a bit off-topic, but "at birth" is a seriously wrong phrasing - they were assigned that phenotypical gender well before birth.
  - microcolonel 6y ago
    They would continue to be male, forever. "Female" is a sex, not merely a gender identity. At birth, nobody is "assigning" genders to you, they are attempting to observe your sex from primary sex characteristics. If they see vulva, they are observing a female; if they see penis/scrotum, they are observing a male. While there are edge cases, it is generally pretty simple.
  - aidenn0 6y ago
    I think, since the assignment is typically done by a medical professional (at least for recording a birth certificate), the assumption is that the gender is either a quickly fixed clerical error or reflective of a phenotype that presents as sufficiently male/female to convince a professional. "Convincing a professional" is a reasonable proxy for biological sex, given that the cases that would fool a medical professional are in many (most?) cases sufficiently ambiguous that a reasonable person could take either side for what the biological sex is.
baddox 6y ago
Simply replacing “men” with “people” in that sentence would work fine.
apocolyps6 6y ago
You could say "people with male/masculine bodies" or you could specify you mean sex rather than gender.
eric4smith 6y ago
Gender is not a social construct. Your gender is the ability to become pregnant or to impregnate someone. This statement is not about politics, its just mere biology. What's socially constructed is how your gender is presented or implied because of said society. No matter how society "constructs" your gender, you're still biologically male or female. Even with gender reassignment surgery - your'e still biologically male or female, its just that the "presentation" of your organs have been surgically altered.
- qtplatypus 6y ago
  In social science the word “gender” is used to refer to the social construction of male and female in order to distinguish it from “sex” which is the physiological makeup of ones body. Physiological sex can be further broken down into ones Anatomical sex, ones chromosomal sex and ones hormonal sex. However it is possible to have anatomically male genitalia and XX chromosomes as well as all other combinations. To ignore this is to ignore biology.
- geofft 6y ago
  So post-menopausal people are genderless? (If you say "but they were women, so we define them as continuing to be women," then I"m going to ask you about congenital azoospermia.)
  - eric4smith 6y ago
    Post-menopausal women still have internal organs which indicate their sex.
    - qtplatypus 6y ago
      And a child born without hips? Are they genderless?
- qqj 6y ago
  This man is stating a tautology and is yet being downvoted as it hurts peoples feelings. This is absurd, I thought that hn was better than this. Sense of entitlement and self delusion is simply out of control, and I mostly blame the modern college system that has failed the latest generations of young men so badly that they cannot function in reality. They are slaves to perceptions and marketing while proclaiming and screaming they are not. Truly, twisted times we live in.
geofft 6y ago
"transgender women pursuing medical transition" or "transgender women pursuing HRT" would both be accurate and non-confusing options in that sentence.
zozbot234 6y ago
> Would it be offensive to say "a person with an x and y chromosome"? AMAB is politically neutral and unambiguous.

by jjeaff 6y ago

aidenn0 6y ago

It's always going to be confusing but I believe "transgender woman" is unambiguously someone assigned male gender at birth who identifies as a woman.

Foober223 6y ago
What if a biological male is assigned female gender at birth? Would they be transgender, or just female?
- andykx 6y ago
  1. When is that going to happen? (Genuinely curious if it does happen) 2. It is really up to the person.
  - eggsome 6y ago
    Regarding 1: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34290981
- geofft 6y ago
  That's part of the reason that "biological male" isn't a highly informative/technically-precise term, but assuming you mean something like Swyer syndrome, there isn't really a reason to worry about estrogen making them infertile, so in context using the phrase "transgender women" would have been clear regardless.
- bashinator 6y ago
  This is a bit off-topic, but "at birth" is a seriously wrong phrasing - they were assigned that phenotypical gender well before birth.
- microcolonel 6y ago
  They would continue to be male, forever. "Female" is a sex, not merely a gender identity. At birth, nobody is "assigning" genders to you, they are attempting to observe your sex from primary sex characteristics. If they see vulva, they are observing a female; if they see penis/scrotum, they are observing a male. While there are edge cases, it is generally pretty simple.
- aidenn0 6y ago
  I think, since the assignment is typically done by a medical professional (at least for recording a birth certificate), the assumption is that the gender is either a quickly fixed clerical error or reflective of a phenotype that presents as sufficiently male/female to convince a professional. "Convincing a professional" is a reasonable proxy for biological sex, given that the cases that would fool a medical professional are in many (most?) cases sufficiently ambiguous that a reasonable person could take either side for what the biological sex is.

baddox 6y ago

Simply replacing “men” with “people” in that sentence would work fine.

apocolyps6 6y ago

You could say "people with male/masculine bodies" or you could specify you mean sex rather than gender.

eric4smith 6y ago

Gender is not a social construct. Your gender is the ability to become pregnant or to impregnate someone. This statement is not about politics, its just mere biology. What's socially constructed is how your gender is presented or implied because of said society. No matter how society "constructs" your gender, you're still biologically male or female. Even with gender reassignment surgery - your'e still biologically male or female, its just that the "presentation" of your organs have been surgically altered.

qtplatypus 6y ago
In social science the word “gender” is used to refer to the social construction of male and female in order to distinguish it from “sex” which is the physiological makeup of ones body. Physiological sex can be further broken down into ones Anatomical sex, ones chromosomal sex and ones hormonal sex. However it is possible to have anatomically male genitalia and XX chromosomes as well as all other combinations. To ignore this is to ignore biology.
geofft 6y ago
So post-menopausal people are genderless? (If you say "but they were women, so we define them as continuing to be women," then I"m going to ask you about congenital azoospermia.)
- eric4smith 6y ago
  Post-menopausal women still have internal organs which indicate their sex.
  - qtplatypus 6y ago
    And a child born without hips? Are they genderless?
qqj 6y ago
This man is stating a tautology and is yet being downvoted as it hurts peoples feelings. This is absurd, I thought that hn was better than this. Sense of entitlement and self delusion is simply out of control, and I mostly blame the modern college system that has failed the latest generations of young men so badly that they cannot function in reality. They are slaves to perceptions and marketing while proclaiming and screaming they are not. Truly, twisted times we live in.

geofft 6y ago

"transgender women pursuing medical transition" or "transgender women pursuing HRT" would both be accurate and non-confusing options in that sentence.

zozbot234 6y ago

> Would it be offensive to say "a person with an x and y chromosome"? AMAB is politically neutral and unambiguous.