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Allow me to extol the virtues of bitcoin over the current credit-card/banking based payment system. 1)Hard money, once you receive payment in bitcoin it stays

Allow me to extol the virtues of bitcoin over the current credit-card/banking based payment system. 1)Hard money, once you receive payment in bitcoin it stays with you, meaning no chargebacks(Paypal, credit cards, looking at you). 2)Fast payment, you can recieve payment within minutes of it being made(sometimes faster, but more on this in a moment). 3) Low barriers of entry, to start accepting bitcoin you don't need a bank account, or even your own computer. You can use one of a number of free(or cheap) online services such as mybitcoin.com or just go ahead and install it on your machine. 4) No red tape, this is slightly related to the above but important enough to warrant it's own point. With bitcoin there are no forms, no regulations, no paperwork. You can send bitcoin to anyone, anywhere, anytime, any amount and no one will care or track you, or freeze your account or any of the other issues when dealing with the current banking system. 5)It's the most innovative financial ecosystem on the planet and evolving damn fast. Because there is no regulation, it's easy to start writing applications that use bitcoin. Services and goods are springing up at an astounding rate. Now you may say that payments take minutes, but creditcards are instantanious this is true (to a certain extent, at least with payment confirmation). However because of the flexibility of bitcoin, it's ease of development a technical solution to this issue will arrise in the near future(next two to three months). Right now bitcoin is small, but it's growing fast, real fast, and faster than the growth of bitcoins themselves or even it's users are the services and goods that are springing up around it. In a years time bitcoin is going to be so easy to use people like your grandmother are going to wonder why they ever bothered with credit-cards(or online banking) at all. Sexy no?

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
noagendamarket 16y ago
Thanks to bitcoin it makes things possible that other microtransaction systems cant do. If anyone wants to listen to a great podcast about it I recently discovered this - http://omegataupodcast.net/2011/03/59-bitcoin-a-digital-decentralized-currency/ http://omegataupodcast.net/2011/03/59-bitcoin-a-digital-dece... It is well worth a listen.
taken11 16y ago
Can you name some of those services that spring up? So far i have not been able to find anything that would make use of Bitcoins in an interesting way.
- noagendamarket 16y ago
  The site mentioned in the article is a unique use of bitcoins. It makes it possible to give as you live http://witcoin.com/charities http://witcoin.com/charities The big upcoming service that will be able to utilise bitcoin is nfc which google is bringing to android. They recently introduced a bitcoin library so it will be a possibility at least.
- spenvo 16y ago
  Given the ease of BTC as an electronic currency, there are not too many unique services. BTCSportsbet is cool and CoinPal allows you to buy giftcards, etc. but nothing ground breaking. Witcoin is interesting/unique because it operates in this kind of "micro-economy" space that is disallowed in other currencies because of transaction fees and the hassle of setting up paypal, etc.. Bitcoin is perfect/preferable for very small transactions. This coupled with the fact that there simply aren't many Bitcoins out there probably points to unique ideas cropping up in the micro-micro-economy space. Check out https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade for a complete list of services.
  - dublinclontarf 16y ago
    There is a lot of cool stuff in the pipeline coming out in the next couple of months. But yes, there are missing services in the bitcoin economy, it's a young economy, which is all the more reason to jump in.
ashconnor 16y ago
Some of the negatives: 1)Phishing, if your private keys and password are compromised your money is gone. 2)Regulations, although governments would find it difficult, if not impossible, to regulate BitCoin. They can regulate the exchange of BitCoin into everyday fiat currencies. We seen this with the likes of e-gold when exchangers were cracked down on due to the ease of laundering money in the system. 3)Value, if people have no faith in the value of BitCoins then the system will not work. Right not there's a lot of commerce with BitCoin but it seems that it's only digital products or services that are accepting it. Once sellers of physical products start accepting BitCoin then it might become are more common currency. 4)Drugs, CP and money laundering. Although I don't believe in the scaremongering tactics used by politicians in order to regulate the likes of the internet, this system is going to be vulnerable to the similar attacks. We've already seen narcotics marketplaces open up that are now accepting BitCoin by operating through the TOR network. Soon enough this will receive a lot of unwanted attention.
- noagendamarket 16y ago
  If you leave your wallet on the beach your cash is gone or someone could pickpocket you. Egold was located on a central server that was liable to confiscation. You can buy alpaca socks with bitcoin. You can do money laundering ,cp and drugs with US dollars.
  - ashconnor 16y ago
    You have recourse by contacting authorities. E-gold's centralised system was not what I was debating. It was the exchange of e-gold to fiat currencies. Alpaca socks I will assume are created by the person who actual sells them. Dealing with other suppliers who won't accept BitCoin was the obstacle I was detailing. I don't debate that you can launder money in USD but it is easier in this system. There's no paper trail, well there's no identity linked to wallets.
    - joelthelion 16y ago
      >no paper trail There's a lot of information in the blockchain. I'm not sure bitcoin is really that great for laundering.
PostOnce 16y ago
You know what else is great about it? The money is stored as a file on your computer. I can steal it from my laptop from the park across the street from your house and be gone before you know its missing, and you will never, ever be able to find me. All I have to do is steal your wallet file and transfer the bitcoins to my account, and the money is irreversibly mine. Computer security being what it is, and with bitcoin growing at the rate you claim it is, I may soon be a millionaire without having done any real work. Welcome to the future.
- dublinclontarf 16y ago
  How will you do that? I don't even have wireless. Jokes aside, the current financial system has the exact same problems, and infact can be worse, especially with username:password based authentication. If someone skims your ATM card and gets your pin number too bad, you've lost the money. Or you could have your wallet pickpocketed, and the thief would be gone without you even knowing the money was missing. What about credit cards? Protect consumers with chargebacks? yes. However these same consumer protections also hurt merchants, who are the ones that pay for chargebacks and frauds. Because there are no chargebacks bitcoin is very attractive to online merchants. If users are not comfortable being responsible for taking care of their btcoins they can always use the bitcoin banking services like mybitcoin.com Fact is bitcoin is money, clever thieves will be able to find clever ways of stealing money, it's been happening since money has been happening. If you're looking for a perfectly secure currency don't hold your breath, cause one hasn't been invented yet and isn't likely any time soon.
  - trotsky 16y ago
    While the current financial system does suffer from many of the same problems, the difference is that there is a sophisticated infrastructure that exists to combat this behavior in these cases. Law enforcement, security services, intelligence agencies, government regulators, bank and credit card employees and insurance companies, among others, all work every day to mitigate these risks on behalf of their respective systems.
    - 16y ago
rmc 16y ago
1)Hard money, once you receive payment in bitcoin it stays with you, meaning no chargebacks(Paypal, credit cards, looking at you). I read this as: "If you give bitcoins to someone in exchange for goods/services and they don't deliver, you're screwed, your money is gone, there is no-one you can talk to". That sounds like it's good for sellers and bad for buyers.
- joelthelion 16y ago
  Check the seller's reputation before buying. I think it's a lot better this way.
  - rmc 16y ago
    How do I do that on the web if I want to buy a book for (the equivalent of) €5? If it's too much work I'll just buy it with euro or dollar from amazon.
- dublinclontarf 16y ago
  Use an escrow service such as clearcoin, clearcoin.appspot.com
- lutorm 16y ago
  Yeah, this is what makes no sense to me. In a f2f transaction, I exchange money for goods. In a virtual transaction, it creates a fundamental asymmetry if the money transfer can't be reversed, since you have no way of verifying the other part of the transaction, i.e., that the goods were actually shipped. The bitcoin proponents make a big deal that transactions can't be reversed. But if you continue reading the FAQ, they also make a big deal about the fact that you shouldn't deal with people you don't trust and that it's your responsibility. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense to me. If transactions were only done between trusted parties, there wouldn't be a need for chargebacks either. You want to put the responsibility entirely on the customer, who has no practical ability to judge trustworthiness of an online retailer. An escrow service doesn't make sense either. Then I have to trust that service. Maybe if some well-known non-bitcoin entity offered such a service, I would be inclined to trust it. But for now, it doesn't seem to me that any of the bitcoin entities have enough to lose to convince me that they're not front ends for scamming operations. I mean, Bernard Madoff and Enron were scams, how in the world could I judge that these operations aren't? It's true I don't have much trust in the government to go find my money when my wallet's picked out of my pocket. But I do have some trust in that if a store front just took customers' money without giving anything back, they would be shut down pretty soon. No, what's needed is a scheme which not only ensures the currency transaction, but the entire transaction. It seems that, at least for digital goods, one should be able to design a system where the good is encrypted, and the use of your key to decrypt it simultaneously effects the currency transaction. Still doesn't ensure the content is what they said it would be, though...
jrmg 16y ago
4) No red tape, this is slightly related to the above but important enough to warrant it's own point. With bitcoin there are no forms, no regulations, no paperwork. You can send bitcoin to anyone, anywhere, anytime, any amount and no one will care or track you, or freeze your account or any of the other issues when dealing with the current banking system. I'm sure your tax authorities would have something to say about that. I'm pretty certain they'll want to see your bitcoin transactions accounted for in exactly the same way as any other.
- dublinclontarf 16y ago
  Yeah, good luck attributing those transactions to me, or to anyone else for that matter. Sure if you're an already existing company it's a good idea to keep accurate records, file forms etc. but if your some 15 year old kid with a great idea who cares, go for it! With the arrival of new businesses operating entirely from within the bitcoin economy and cypherspace no amount of government regulation will matter. How can you tax something you can't even find, or stop or do anything to?
  - jrmg 16y ago
    I guess our political views differ. I find the idea of cheating on taxes rather distasteful. In any case, morals aside, I don't really see why this is different to cash for taxation purposes. Cash is also basically untraceable, and while there are certainly plenty of under-the-table transactions that mean it's not taxed 100% accurately, it's pretty hard to get away with avoiding taxes indefinitely if you're handling a lot of it. I don't understand why bitcoin would be any different.
    - dublinclontarf 16y ago
      Exactly just like cash, people like cash. However you could sell a lot of online services with bitcoins, potentially millions of USD worth without the taxman getting so much as a sniff that anything odd is happening. Nor even if they investigated you would they be able to prove anything(depending on your lifestyle,no pricy sports cars). With regards to my political views, I'm not a fan of paying governments to screw me. I tend to like the idea of keeping the wealth I created. But more importantly I like being able to make that wealth with methods that the government might not approve of. And bitcoin can allow me to do that.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

noagendamarket 16y ago

Thanks to bitcoin it makes things possible that other microtransaction systems cant do. If anyone wants to listen to a great podcast about it I recently discovered this - http://omegataupodcast.net/2011/03/59-bitcoin-a-digital-decentralized-currency/ http://omegataupodcast.net/2011/03/59-bitcoin-a-digital-dece... It is well worth a listen.

taken11 16y ago

Can you name some of those services that spring up? So far i have not been able to find anything that would make use of Bitcoins in an interesting way.

noagendamarket 16y ago
The site mentioned in the article is a unique use of bitcoins. It makes it possible to give as you live http://witcoin.com/charities http://witcoin.com/charities The big upcoming service that will be able to utilise bitcoin is nfc which google is bringing to android. They recently introduced a bitcoin library so it will be a possibility at least.
spenvo 16y ago
Given the ease of BTC as an electronic currency, there are not too many unique services. BTCSportsbet is cool and CoinPal allows you to buy giftcards, etc. but nothing ground breaking. Witcoin is interesting/unique because it operates in this kind of "micro-economy" space that is disallowed in other currencies because of transaction fees and the hassle of setting up paypal, etc.. Bitcoin is perfect/preferable for very small transactions. This coupled with the fact that there simply aren't many Bitcoins out there probably points to unique ideas cropping up in the micro-micro-economy space. Check out https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade for a complete list of services.
- dublinclontarf 16y ago
  There is a lot of cool stuff in the pipeline coming out in the next couple of months. But yes, there are missing services in the bitcoin economy, it's a young economy, which is all the more reason to jump in.

ashconnor 16y ago

Some of the negatives: 1)Phishing, if your private keys and password are compromised your money is gone. 2)Regulations, although governments would find it difficult, if not impossible, to regulate BitCoin. They can regulate the exchange of BitCoin into everyday fiat currencies. We seen this with the likes of e-gold when exchangers were cracked down on due to the ease of laundering money in the system. 3)Value, if people have no faith in the value of BitCoins then the system will not work. Right not there's a lot of commerce with BitCoin but it seems that it's only digital products or services that are accepting it. Once sellers of physical products start accepting BitCoin then it might become are more common currency. 4)Drugs, CP and money laundering. Although I don't believe in the scaremongering tactics used by politicians in order to regulate the likes of the internet, this system is going to be vulnerable to the similar attacks. We've already seen narcotics marketplaces open up that are now accepting BitCoin by operating through the TOR network. Soon enough this will receive a lot of unwanted attention.

noagendamarket 16y ago
If you leave your wallet on the beach your cash is gone or someone could pickpocket you. Egold was located on a central server that was liable to confiscation. You can buy alpaca socks with bitcoin. You can do money laundering ,cp and drugs with US dollars.
- ashconnor 16y ago
  You have recourse by contacting authorities. E-gold's centralised system was not what I was debating. It was the exchange of e-gold to fiat currencies. Alpaca socks I will assume are created by the person who actual sells them. Dealing with other suppliers who won't accept BitCoin was the obstacle I was detailing. I don't debate that you can launder money in USD but it is easier in this system. There's no paper trail, well there's no identity linked to wallets.
  - joelthelion 16y ago
    >no paper trail There's a lot of information in the blockchain. I'm not sure bitcoin is really that great for laundering.

PostOnce 16y ago

You know what else is great about it? The money is stored as a file on your computer. I can steal it from my laptop from the park across the street from your house and be gone before you know its missing, and you will never, ever be able to find me. All I have to do is steal your wallet file and transfer the bitcoins to my account, and the money is irreversibly mine. Computer security being what it is, and with bitcoin growing at the rate you claim it is, I may soon be a millionaire without having done any real work. Welcome to the future.

dublinclontarf 16y ago
How will you do that? I don't even have wireless. Jokes aside, the current financial system has the exact same problems, and infact can be worse, especially with username:password based authentication. If someone skims your ATM card and gets your pin number too bad, you've lost the money. Or you could have your wallet pickpocketed, and the thief would be gone without you even knowing the money was missing. What about credit cards? Protect consumers with chargebacks? yes. However these same consumer protections also hurt merchants, who are the ones that pay for chargebacks and frauds. Because there are no chargebacks bitcoin is very attractive to online merchants. If users are not comfortable being responsible for taking care of their btcoins they can always use the bitcoin banking services like mybitcoin.com Fact is bitcoin is money, clever thieves will be able to find clever ways of stealing money, it's been happening since money has been happening. If you're looking for a perfectly secure currency don't hold your breath, cause one hasn't been invented yet and isn't likely any time soon.
- trotsky 16y ago
  While the current financial system does suffer from many of the same problems, the difference is that there is a sophisticated infrastructure that exists to combat this behavior in these cases. Law enforcement, security services, intelligence agencies, government regulators, bank and credit card employees and insurance companies, among others, all work every day to mitigate these risks on behalf of their respective systems.
  - 16y ago

rmc 16y ago

1)Hard money, once you receive payment in bitcoin it stays with you, meaning no chargebacks(Paypal, credit cards, looking at you). I read this as: "If you give bitcoins to someone in exchange for goods/services and they don't deliver, you're screwed, your money is gone, there is no-one you can talk to". That sounds like it's good for sellers and bad for buyers.

joelthelion 16y ago
Check the seller's reputation before buying. I think it's a lot better this way.
- rmc 16y ago
  How do I do that on the web if I want to buy a book for (the equivalent of) €5? If it's too much work I'll just buy it with euro or dollar from amazon.
dublinclontarf 16y ago
Use an escrow service such as clearcoin, clearcoin.appspot.com
lutorm 16y ago
Yeah, this is what makes no sense to me. In a f2f transaction, I exchange money for goods. In a virtual transaction, it creates a fundamental asymmetry if the money transfer can't be reversed, since you have no way of verifying the other part of the transaction, i.e., that the goods were actually shipped. The bitcoin proponents make a big deal that transactions can't be reversed. But if you continue reading the FAQ, they also make a big deal about the fact that you shouldn't deal with people you don't trust and that it's your responsibility. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense to me. If transactions were only done between trusted parties, there wouldn't be a need for chargebacks either. You want to put the responsibility entirely on the customer, who has no practical ability to judge trustworthiness of an online retailer. An escrow service doesn't make sense either. Then I have to trust that service. Maybe if some well-known non-bitcoin entity offered such a service, I would be inclined to trust it. But for now, it doesn't seem to me that any of the bitcoin entities have enough to lose to convince me that they're not front ends for scamming operations. I mean, Bernard Madoff and Enron were scams, how in the world could I judge that these operations aren't? It's true I don't have much trust in the government to go find my money when my wallet's picked out of my pocket. But I do have some trust in that if a store front just took customers' money without giving anything back, they would be shut down pretty soon. No, what's needed is a scheme which not only ensures the currency transaction, but the entire transaction. It seems that, at least for digital goods, one should be able to design a system where the good is encrypted, and the use of your key to decrypt it simultaneously effects the currency transaction. Still doesn't ensure the content is what they said it would be, though...

jrmg 16y ago

4) No red tape, this is slightly related to the above but important enough to warrant it's own point. With bitcoin there are no forms, no regulations, no paperwork. You can send bitcoin to anyone, anywhere, anytime, any amount and no one will care or track you, or freeze your account or any of the other issues when dealing with the current banking system. I'm sure your tax authorities would have something to say about that. I'm pretty certain they'll want to see your bitcoin transactions accounted for in exactly the same way as any other.

dublinclontarf 16y ago
Yeah, good luck attributing those transactions to me, or to anyone else for that matter. Sure if you're an already existing company it's a good idea to keep accurate records, file forms etc. but if your some 15 year old kid with a great idea who cares, go for it! With the arrival of new businesses operating entirely from within the bitcoin economy and cypherspace no amount of government regulation will matter. How can you tax something you can't even find, or stop or do anything to?
- jrmg 16y ago
  I guess our political views differ. I find the idea of cheating on taxes rather distasteful. In any case, morals aside, I don't really see why this is different to cash for taxation purposes. Cash is also basically untraceable, and while there are certainly plenty of under-the-table transactions that mean it's not taxed 100% accurately, it's pretty hard to get away with avoiding taxes indefinitely if you're handling a lot of it. I don't understand why bitcoin would be any different.
  - dublinclontarf 16y ago
    Exactly just like cash, people like cash. However you could sell a lot of online services with bitcoins, potentially millions of USD worth without the taxman getting so much as a sniff that anything odd is happening. Nor even if they investigated you would they be able to prove anything(depending on your lifestyle,no pricy sports cars). With regards to my political views, I'm not a fan of paying governments to screw me. I tend to like the idea of keeping the wealth I created. But more importantly I like being able to make that wealth with methods that the government might not approve of. And bitcoin can allow me to do that.