4 ms·

Came here ready to be horrified at the gender paranoia living under the surface of HN, was actually surprised with how reasonable everyone was. Except this com

Came here ready to be horrified at the gender paranoia living under the surface of HN, was actually surprised with how reasonable everyone was. Except this comment. None of those symptoms (infertility, "complete mental destruction" or, heh, "assault on the testicles") are alleged here. He got an inappropriate drug, possibly punitively. And that's horrifying enough without painting figurative spectres of the unimaginable cruelty of... emasculation?

d33lio 6y ago
It's not "paranoia" if the subject of the gender-bending either a) was not aware or b) was being held in a state funded institution and otherwise had no intention of "transitioning" to the opposite gender...
beervirus 6y ago
The article doesn't go into it, but any of those are plausible enough as results of what this doctor did.
microcolonel 6y ago
You did not read the complete details of the case (or frankly, even read the comment you're replying to). The dose was large enough to give him gynecomastia, which the other inmates bullied him for, and for which he will require surgery. His father reports that his son's personality is completely different, he is now a total shut-in. > He got an inappropriate drug He was injected† with non-indicated (as in, there is no literature on this rogue prescription) contradictory sex hormones during adolescence and under duress; I don't know why you're downplaying this, I hope it's just because you don't know what this means. > infertility Infertility is a common outcome of sex hormone therapies. > ...the unimaginable cruelty of... emasculation? If suppressing gender dysphoric people is wrong, how can it be moral to medically intervene to deprive an adolescent of the normal functioning of his body, and an already solidified gender identity? Using non-indicated medical interventions to emasculate or defeminate somebody who is already secure is a form of extreme cruelty, from basically any moral frame, yes. † Correction from helpful reply: not injected, taken as pills. I got the "injection" thing from this thread, had thought it was pills before.
- newacct583 6y ago
  > He was injected with non-indicated contradictory sex hormones during adolescence and under duress; I don't know why you're downplaying this I'm not downplaying this at all. It's you who are boosting your interpretation because of "assault on the testicles", "mental destruction", "sex hormone", and other things that tell me what you're really upset about is his masculinity and not his well being. No, I don't think this is any worse than had he gotten an equivalently dangerous drug (say, fentanyl for sedation, which has also been alleged in juvenile detention facilities IIRC). And I'm point out the fact that you do is... unseemly.
  - Spooky23 6y ago
    An opiate is very different than messing with hormones in a teen.
  - 0xy 6y ago
    Are you actually suggesting him losing his masculinity by forced medication of an unnecessary drug is not in itself an issue? What's the problem with masculinity, exactly, and why is it so bad that drugs should be given to children to remove it?
  - microcolonel 6y ago
    > It's you who are boosting your interpretation because of "assault on the testicles", "mental destruction", "sex hormone", and other things that tell me The "assault on testicles" thing was not even part of my description of the boy's condition, it was part of my hypothetical of a crime with potentially equivalent (or probably less severe) outcomes. And for your information, sex hormones are a basic and widely-accepted concept; just because some people are afraid to call them that in the English-language publications of some corrupt institutions in the last five to ten years doesn't mean they went away. Go ahead and tell any trans person on HRT that sex hormones aren't a thing; if they believe you, they'll be horrified, if they know how wrong you are, they may be too flabbergasted to even begin to tell you. > ...what you're really upset about is his masculinity and not his well being. I think that you ought to do some introspection as to why you consider those things not to be related. I suspect you are concerned about some people's security in their gender identity, but you seem to want desperately to paint it as a minor thing that they seem to have treated this boy's gender identity (and sexual function) as a disposable lab material; maybe you personally place no value on masculinity, but that's not for you to decide on this boy's behalf. > ...an equivalently dangerous drug (say, fentanyl for sedation, which has also been alleged in juvenile detention facilities IIRC) fentanyl is generally safe, the safest opioid AFAIK, and its effects wear off in seconds or minutes (which is why it is often administered through slow-release patches or lollipops).
rubber_duck 6y ago
If a coach was doping teen athletes with test without their knowledge or coercing them in to it, hell even misleading them to do it, I'm pretty sure I would expect jail time, assault charges etc. And you would probably be in favour as well. But because attacking this feels like an attack on your political narrative you feel the need to spin it inside of it and downplay this. And don't even try the "this is a medical professional" - the kid got gyno and this is not an approved procedure - it's exactly the same as the coach doping kids.
- newacct583 6y ago
  I think I'd support jail time for this abuse, FWIW (to be fair I've only read the one article). I'm reacting to the gendered reasoning among the poster above. It's bad because it's an unnecessary medical process used (apparently) as a punishment, not because it stole his manhood or whatever. I'm fine if you're super upset. But if you're MORE upset because of the gendering interaction, that's wrong. The poster above clearly was.
  - jacobush 6y ago
    Potentially rendering someone sterile is a worse assault and bodily harm than just gender tampering, whatever that would be on its own.
  - rubber_duck 6y ago
    It depends on the motivation, if it was ideologically motivated I would be outraged at the ideology that lead to it and people justifying it, just like I would be outraged at state of high school sports that lead to a coach doing this and people defending that. But I sort of agree, there is no proof this is ideological (in fact it sounds just as likely that the doctor was experimenting), the other guy is spinning it his way as well - I think you can say that without the need to defend/downplay the action.
    - catalogia 6y ago
      > (in fact it sounds just as likely that the doctor was experimenting) I can think of another prison "doctor" who's known for "experimenting" on unwilling victims. Claiming to be doing experiments, yet without any hint of scientific rigor. If the claims made in the article are true, this guy belongs in prison no matter his excuse. Whether or not an ideological motivation can be proven or ruled out is completely irrelevant.

d33lio 6y ago

It's not "paranoia" if the subject of the gender-bending either a) was not aware or b) was being held in a state funded institution and otherwise had no intention of "transitioning" to the opposite gender...

beervirus 6y ago

The article doesn't go into it, but any of those are plausible enough as results of what this doctor did.

microcolonel 6y ago

You did not read the complete details of the case (or frankly, even read the comment you're replying to). The dose was large enough to give him gynecomastia, which the other inmates bullied him for, and for which he will require surgery. His father reports that his son's personality is completely different, he is now a total shut-in. > He got an inappropriate drug He was injected† with non-indicated (as in, there is no literature on this rogue prescription) contradictory sex hormones during adolescence and under duress; I don't know why you're downplaying this, I hope it's just because you don't know what this means. > infertility Infertility is a common outcome of sex hormone therapies. > ...the unimaginable cruelty of... emasculation? If suppressing gender dysphoric people is wrong, how can it be moral to medically intervene to deprive an adolescent of the normal functioning of his body, and an already solidified gender identity? Using non-indicated medical interventions to emasculate or defeminate somebody who is already secure is a form of extreme cruelty, from basically any moral frame, yes. † Correction from helpful reply: not injected, taken as pills. I got the "injection" thing from this thread, had thought it was pills before.

newacct583 6y ago
> He was injected with non-indicated contradictory sex hormones during adolescence and under duress; I don't know why you're downplaying this I'm not downplaying this at all. It's you who are boosting your interpretation because of "assault on the testicles", "mental destruction", "sex hormone", and other things that tell me what you're really upset about is his masculinity and not his well being. No, I don't think this is any worse than had he gotten an equivalently dangerous drug (say, fentanyl for sedation, which has also been alleged in juvenile detention facilities IIRC). And I'm point out the fact that you do is... unseemly.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  An opiate is very different than messing with hormones in a teen.
- 0xy 6y ago
  Are you actually suggesting him losing his masculinity by forced medication of an unnecessary drug is not in itself an issue? What's the problem with masculinity, exactly, and why is it so bad that drugs should be given to children to remove it?
- microcolonel 6y ago
  > It's you who are boosting your interpretation because of "assault on the testicles", "mental destruction", "sex hormone", and other things that tell me The "assault on testicles" thing was not even part of my description of the boy's condition, it was part of my hypothetical of a crime with potentially equivalent (or probably less severe) outcomes. And for your information, sex hormones are a basic and widely-accepted concept; just because some people are afraid to call them that in the English-language publications of some corrupt institutions in the last five to ten years doesn't mean they went away. Go ahead and tell any trans person on HRT that sex hormones aren't a thing; if they believe you, they'll be horrified, if they know how wrong you are, they may be too flabbergasted to even begin to tell you. > ...what you're really upset about is his masculinity and not his well being. I think that you ought to do some introspection as to why you consider those things not to be related. I suspect you are concerned about some people's security in their gender identity, but you seem to want desperately to paint it as a minor thing that they seem to have treated this boy's gender identity (and sexual function) as a disposable lab material; maybe you personally place no value on masculinity, but that's not for you to decide on this boy's behalf. > ...an equivalently dangerous drug (say, fentanyl for sedation, which has also been alleged in juvenile detention facilities IIRC) fentanyl is generally safe, the safest opioid AFAIK, and its effects wear off in seconds or minutes (which is why it is often administered through slow-release patches or lollipops).

rubber_duck 6y ago

If a coach was doping teen athletes with test without their knowledge or coercing them in to it, hell even misleading them to do it, I'm pretty sure I would expect jail time, assault charges etc. And you would probably be in favour as well. But because attacking this feels like an attack on your political narrative you feel the need to spin it inside of it and downplay this. And don't even try the "this is a medical professional" - the kid got gyno and this is not an approved procedure - it's exactly the same as the coach doping kids.

newacct583 6y ago
I think I'd support jail time for this abuse, FWIW (to be fair I've only read the one article). I'm reacting to the gendered reasoning among the poster above. It's bad because it's an unnecessary medical process used (apparently) as a punishment, not because it stole his manhood or whatever. I'm fine if you're super upset. But if you're MORE upset because of the gendering interaction, that's wrong. The poster above clearly was.
- jacobush 6y ago
  Potentially rendering someone sterile is a worse assault and bodily harm than just gender tampering, whatever that would be on its own.
- rubber_duck 6y ago
  It depends on the motivation, if it was ideologically motivated I would be outraged at the ideology that lead to it and people justifying it, just like I would be outraged at state of high school sports that lead to a coach doing this and people defending that. But I sort of agree, there is no proof this is ideological (in fact it sounds just as likely that the doctor was experimenting), the other guy is spinning it his way as well - I think you can say that without the need to defend/downplay the action.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    > (in fact it sounds just as likely that the doctor was experimenting) I can think of another prison "doctor" who's known for "experimenting" on unwilling victims. Claiming to be doing experiments, yet without any hint of scientific rigor. If the claims made in the article are true, this guy belongs in prison no matter his excuse. Whether or not an ideological motivation can be proven or ruled out is completely irrelevant.