6 ms·

Given that nobody seems to be able to account for his decision, it seems like maybe he should be in prison. If somebody assaults my testicles and renders me in

Given that nobody seems to be able to account for his decision, it seems like maybe he should be in prison. If somebody assaults my testicles and renders me infertile, that is an extremely serious crime; this doctor may well have done the equivalent (along with completely destroying the boy mentally) with the stroke of a pen.

fwip 6y ago
The good news (for this boy) is that 13 days of hormone therapy are unlikely to cause any permanent changes. Infertility/sterility is usually only expected after years of HRT - and even then, often returns if HRT is ceased.
- 0xy 6y ago
  You are correct in that such a low dose for a short period of time is unlikely to have major problems, but HRT is not a risk-free treatment. It increases risk of heart disease, stroke, blood clots and more.
  - fwip 6y ago
    In studies of post-menopausal cis women, that's correct, extended use is associated with those things. (Also, I think some of those were done with Premarin, which is no longer widely used?) There has been unfortunately few studies done on transgender people or on young people. (I welcome any links to studies you have!)
  - mobilejdral 6y ago
    If you are taking non-bioidentical hormones yes, but if you are taking bioidentical hormones it is a different story.
    - LyndsySimon 6y ago
      My understanding is that serum estrogen levels are strongly correlated to increased risk of heart disease in men.
- samfriedman 6y ago
  FTA: Ouchi said the boy, now 17, was released in April and will require surgery to treat the physical issues he developed as a result of the estrogen treatment. ... The boy’s father said the hormone therapy has had a long-term effect on his son, who now scares easily and has become antisocial. “He’s like a different person. He just wants to be in his room, and he don’t come out for nothing, all day in his room,” the father said. “He was never like that.”
  - slg 6y ago
    >“He’s like a different person. He just wants to be in his room, and he don’t come out for nothing, all day in his room,” the father said. “He was never like that.” What I am about to say is in no way a defense of the doctor or his actions. What percentage of parents would say this exact same thing about their teenage children? It is perfectly normal behavior and I'm not sure there is anything to link it to the unnecessary hormones forced on the unfortunate kid.
  - pengaru 6y ago
    > The boy’s father said the hormone therapy has had a long-term effect on his son, who now scares easily and has become antisocial. “He’s like a different person. He just wants to be in his room, and he don’t come out for nothing, all day in his room,” the father said. “He was never like that.” How could one possibly discern this from the effects of going through juvie in general. I'd certainly feel betrayed by society, regardless of what meds I was given.
    - hirundo 6y ago
      An adolescent boy grows breasts and then wants to stay in his room all day. It could well be all about body shame, trying to protect himself from social trauma. The rate of suicide among people who transition on purpose is so extremely high. What must it be among people who are transitioned by force.
      - jauer 6y ago
        Giving someone the wrong hormones is one way to induce gender dysphoria in non-trans people, so suicide rate there should be similar to that of trans people with unmanaged gender dysphoria. Suicide rates among people who transition are generally correlated with minority stress [1,2], not transition itself: "The myth that transition leads to SITBs continues to be used to deny transgender health care access and legislative rights, despite a lack of empirical support for this position and repeated research debunking it." (SITB= suicidal thoughts and behaviors) [3] 1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6813817/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6813817/ 2: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/ 3: https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/trgh.2019.0009 https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/trgh.2019.0009
- floatingatoll 6y ago
  Your statement needs a clarification: > 13 days of hormone therapy are unlikely to cause sterility. Yes, it's possible he won't end up sterilized by this. However: The breast growth triggered in men by medical doses of estrogen is not reversible and requires surgery to correct. There will be social ramifications for life. There may be other (non-virility) physical ramifications for life.
  - mobilejdral 6y ago
    2mg of E2 for only 13 days and he needs surgery? Sounds very much like something a lawyer would say. At most a few mm of development/widening of the areola with the start of development under. Not noticeable unless you are actually measuring them weekly. It is common enough that a someone will have to go off HRT after only a few weeks and anything underlying breast development will undo itself, but not the areola. But full blown gynecomastia that is irreversible? That takes a lot longer. Perhaps he was already overweight, high fat percentage (which results in high e2 in males) and some gynecomastia already? Further I would be willing to bet that he was swallowing all 2mg at once and not taking the pills sublingually or buccally split across the day. It is up to the lawyers to decide and maybe he had better breast development than any trans woman I know, but everything in my experience tells me that noticeable gynecomastia takes longer than 13 days on e2.
    - qtplatypus 6y ago
      This is speculation but if the boy had higher levels of T his body could have already been producing a higher then average amount of estrogen.
      - LyndsySimon 6y ago
        My lay understanding is that the absolute levels of testosterone and estrogen are much less important for men than their relative levels. I actually had blood drawn a couple of weeks ago to check for this very thing. I’m male, and while my testosterone levels are in the median range, my estrogen levels are very high relatively speaking. I’m operating under the assumption that it’s caused by recent weight gain - thanks, quarantine - so I’m working to lose that weight and will check it again. Interestingly, there don’t seem to be many accepted options for reducing estrogen levels. My PCP suggested broccoli seed extract, but made it clear that it wasn’t a well-supported or accepted treatment. The most reliable treatment is a change of lifestyle.
newacct583 6y ago
Came here ready to be horrified at the gender paranoia living under the surface of HN, was actually surprised with how reasonable everyone was. Except this comment. None of those symptoms (infertility, "complete mental destruction" or, heh, "assault on the testicles") are alleged here. He got an inappropriate drug, possibly punitively. And that's horrifying enough without painting figurative spectres of the unimaginable cruelty of... emasculation?
- d33lio 6y ago
  It's not "paranoia" if the subject of the gender-bending either a) was not aware or b) was being held in a state funded institution and otherwise had no intention of "transitioning" to the opposite gender...
- beervirus 6y ago
  The article doesn't go into it, but any of those are plausible enough as results of what this doctor did.
- microcolonel 6y ago
  You did not read the complete details of the case (or frankly, even read the comment you're replying to). The dose was large enough to give him gynecomastia, which the other inmates bullied him for, and for which he will require surgery. His father reports that his son's personality is completely different, he is now a total shut-in. > He got an inappropriate drug He was injected† with non-indicated (as in, there is no literature on this rogue prescription) contradictory sex hormones during adolescence and under duress; I don't know why you're downplaying this, I hope it's just because you don't know what this means. > infertility Infertility is a common outcome of sex hormone therapies. > ...the unimaginable cruelty of... emasculation? If suppressing gender dysphoric people is wrong, how can it be moral to medically intervene to deprive an adolescent of the normal functioning of his body, and an already solidified gender identity? Using non-indicated medical interventions to emasculate or defeminate somebody who is already secure is a form of extreme cruelty, from basically any moral frame, yes. † Correction from helpful reply: not injected, taken as pills. I got the "injection" thing from this thread, had thought it was pills before.

fwip 6y ago

The good news (for this boy) is that 13 days of hormone therapy are unlikely to cause any permanent changes. Infertility/sterility is usually only expected after years of HRT - and even then, often returns if HRT is ceased.

0xy 6y ago
You are correct in that such a low dose for a short period of time is unlikely to have major problems, but HRT is not a risk-free treatment. It increases risk of heart disease, stroke, blood clots and more.
- fwip 6y ago
  In studies of post-menopausal cis women, that's correct, extended use is associated with those things. (Also, I think some of those were done with Premarin, which is no longer widely used?) There has been unfortunately few studies done on transgender people or on young people. (I welcome any links to studies you have!)
- mobilejdral 6y ago
  If you are taking non-bioidentical hormones yes, but if you are taking bioidentical hormones it is a different story.
  - LyndsySimon 6y ago
    My understanding is that serum estrogen levels are strongly correlated to increased risk of heart disease in men.
samfriedman 6y ago
FTA: Ouchi said the boy, now 17, was released in April and will require surgery to treat the physical issues he developed as a result of the estrogen treatment. ... The boy’s father said the hormone therapy has had a long-term effect on his son, who now scares easily and has become antisocial. “He’s like a different person. He just wants to be in his room, and he don’t come out for nothing, all day in his room,” the father said. “He was never like that.”
- slg 6y ago
  >“He’s like a different person. He just wants to be in his room, and he don’t come out for nothing, all day in his room,” the father said. “He was never like that.” What I am about to say is in no way a defense of the doctor or his actions. What percentage of parents would say this exact same thing about their teenage children? It is perfectly normal behavior and I'm not sure there is anything to link it to the unnecessary hormones forced on the unfortunate kid.
- pengaru 6y ago
  > The boy’s father said the hormone therapy has had a long-term effect on his son, who now scares easily and has become antisocial. “He’s like a different person. He just wants to be in his room, and he don’t come out for nothing, all day in his room,” the father said. “He was never like that.” How could one possibly discern this from the effects of going through juvie in general. I'd certainly feel betrayed by society, regardless of what meds I was given.
  - hirundo 6y ago
    An adolescent boy grows breasts and then wants to stay in his room all day. It could well be all about body shame, trying to protect himself from social trauma. The rate of suicide among people who transition on purpose is so extremely high. What must it be among people who are transitioned by force.
    - jauer 6y ago
      Giving someone the wrong hormones is one way to induce gender dysphoria in non-trans people, so suicide rate there should be similar to that of trans people with unmanaged gender dysphoria. Suicide rates among people who transition are generally correlated with minority stress [1,2], not transition itself: "The myth that transition leads to SITBs continues to be used to deny transgender health care access and legislative rights, despite a lack of empirical support for this position and repeated research debunking it." (SITB= suicidal thoughts and behaviors) [3] 1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6813817/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6813817/ 2: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/ 3: https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/trgh.2019.0009 https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/trgh.2019.0009
floatingatoll 6y ago
Your statement needs a clarification: > 13 days of hormone therapy are unlikely to cause sterility. Yes, it's possible he won't end up sterilized by this. However: The breast growth triggered in men by medical doses of estrogen is not reversible and requires surgery to correct. There will be social ramifications for life. There may be other (non-virility) physical ramifications for life.
- mobilejdral 6y ago
  2mg of E2 for only 13 days and he needs surgery? Sounds very much like something a lawyer would say. At most a few mm of development/widening of the areola with the start of development under. Not noticeable unless you are actually measuring them weekly. It is common enough that a someone will have to go off HRT after only a few weeks and anything underlying breast development will undo itself, but not the areola. But full blown gynecomastia that is irreversible? That takes a lot longer. Perhaps he was already overweight, high fat percentage (which results in high e2 in males) and some gynecomastia already? Further I would be willing to bet that he was swallowing all 2mg at once and not taking the pills sublingually or buccally split across the day. It is up to the lawyers to decide and maybe he had better breast development than any trans woman I know, but everything in my experience tells me that noticeable gynecomastia takes longer than 13 days on e2.
  - qtplatypus 6y ago
    This is speculation but if the boy had higher levels of T his body could have already been producing a higher then average amount of estrogen.
    - LyndsySimon 6y ago
      My lay understanding is that the absolute levels of testosterone and estrogen are much less important for men than their relative levels. I actually had blood drawn a couple of weeks ago to check for this very thing. I’m male, and while my testosterone levels are in the median range, my estrogen levels are very high relatively speaking. I’m operating under the assumption that it’s caused by recent weight gain - thanks, quarantine - so I’m working to lose that weight and will check it again. Interestingly, there don’t seem to be many accepted options for reducing estrogen levels. My PCP suggested broccoli seed extract, but made it clear that it wasn’t a well-supported or accepted treatment. The most reliable treatment is a change of lifestyle.

newacct583 6y ago

Came here ready to be horrified at the gender paranoia living under the surface of HN, was actually surprised with how reasonable everyone was. Except this comment. None of those symptoms (infertility, "complete mental destruction" or, heh, "assault on the testicles") are alleged here. He got an inappropriate drug, possibly punitively. And that's horrifying enough without painting figurative spectres of the unimaginable cruelty of... emasculation?

d33lio 6y ago
It's not "paranoia" if the subject of the gender-bending either a) was not aware or b) was being held in a state funded institution and otherwise had no intention of "transitioning" to the opposite gender...
beervirus 6y ago
The article doesn't go into it, but any of those are plausible enough as results of what this doctor did.
microcolonel 6y ago
You did not read the complete details of the case (or frankly, even read the comment you're replying to). The dose was large enough to give him gynecomastia, which the other inmates bullied him for, and for which he will require surgery. His father reports that his son's personality is completely different, he is now a total shut-in. > He got an inappropriate drug He was injected† with non-indicated (as in, there is no literature on this rogue prescription) contradictory sex hormones during adolescence and under duress; I don't know why you're downplaying this, I hope it's just because you don't know what this means. > infertility Infertility is a common outcome of sex hormone therapies. > ...the unimaginable cruelty of... emasculation? If suppressing gender dysphoric people is wrong, how can it be moral to medically intervene to deprive an adolescent of the normal functioning of his body, and an already solidified gender identity? Using non-indicated medical interventions to emasculate or defeminate somebody who is already secure is a form of extreme cruelty, from basically any moral frame, yes. † Correction from helpful reply: not injected, taken as pills. I got the "injection" thing from this thread, had thought it was pills before.