41 ms·
Boy, 16, was given estrogen at L.A. juvenile hall, suit says
- vmception 6y agoestrogen, ketamine, actual therapy whats the difference? edit, for those that can't tell: /s the intent is to highlight the absurdity of a system that clearly needs changing across the board, not just in one prison in one municipality.
- filoleg 6y agowell, the main issue is that people usually opt for estrogen/ketamine therapy voluntarily and for specific problems those therapies are supposed to address (estrogen for gender reassignment, ketamine for chronic depression), neither of which seems to be the case here.
- Deely123123 6y agoSarcasm? Behavioral disorder therapy is not equal to hormone therapy.
- vmception 6y agoyes, sarcasm. this system seems to use random cocktails on people with no medical evaluation to support it. this is america.
- autokad 6y agoi disagree. we have treatments that have been shown to be helpful for a given disease. its not perfect but giving out random cocktails is not the norm. estrogen is not a treatment for that disease, which is why this is a headline and that action (as far as I can tell) is heinous.
- anoxor 6y agoThis is extremely rare, worth media attention, and rightfully outcry and pursuing justice through legal means.
- oehpr 6y agoInternet comment forums are sure a weird social dynamic. It feels like your talking with a group of friends, but also, we're all strangers meeting for the first time. So cracking a sarcastic joke, a thing that really only works if you know your audience and your audience knows you, feels safe, but obviously doesn't work very well.
- save_ferris 6y agoOne is medically approved, while the other sounds to be like some experiment/retribution that someone did to a minor. Do you really not see the difference here? > “Estrogen is not a treatment for ODD. I can’t be more emphatic about that,” McGough said. “You won’t find a reference anywhere that supports the use of estrogen for ODD.” There's no way this was medically approved.
- Natsu 6y agoFor what it's worth, I've personally witnessed esketamine make major improvements to treatment resistant depression after a single treatment when nothing else is working worth a damn. So it's pretty clear to me that it is a real treatment with good cause for using it. Now, it didn't work in our case because of underlying psychosis, which also means it's dangerous as heck and needs to be used carefully, but in terms of effect size, someone can go from rating their depression as 10 out of 10 down to zero in one treatment. So I wouldn't be hasty to discard it, just careful to use it on the right people and maybe I'd figure out some way to deal with the psychosis so that those who might otherwise get excluded could have the benefits too.
- 0xy 6y agoThe doctor should be stripped of their license.
- microcolonel 6y agoGiven that nobody seems to be able to account for his decision, it seems like maybe he should be in prison. If somebody assaults my testicles and renders me infertile, that is an extremely serious crime; this doctor may well have done the equivalent (along with completely destroying the boy mentally) with the stroke of a pen.
- fwip 6y agoThe good news (for this boy) is that 13 days of hormone therapy are unlikely to cause any permanent changes. Infertility/sterility is usually only expected after years of HRT - and even then, often returns if HRT is ceased.
- 0xy 6y agoYou are correct in that such a low dose for a short period of time is unlikely to have major problems, but HRT is not a risk-free treatment. It increases risk of heart disease, stroke, blood clots and more.
- fwip 6y agoIn studies of post-menopausal cis women, that's correct, extended use is associated with those things. (Also, I think some of those were done with Premarin, which is no longer widely used?) There has been unfortunately few studies done on transgender people or on young people. (I welcome any links to studies you have!)
- mobilejdral 6y agoIf you are taking non-bioidentical hormones yes, but if you are taking bioidentical hormones it is a different story.
- non-entity 6y ago> Prior to that, Ouchi said, his client felt compelled to take the pills because he feared that disobeying Wang would have a detrimental effect on his pending criminal case. Makes you wonder what all kind of shady medical shit is done in jails and prisons.
- heavyset_go 6y ago> Makes you wonder what all kind of shady medical shit is done in jails and prisons. I've personally watched guards ignore diabetic patients in crisis, and heard them tell arrested, but not yet convicted, people to not declare any medical condition that they need medications for while in custody, because the cops didn't want to drive the arrested persons to the hospital and keep them under observation while they're prescribed the medication they need. If you don't declare any medical conditions during the intake process, and then you have a medical crisis while in custody because you don't have the medication you need to manage your condition, they aren't liable, and good luck convincing the cops to take you to a doctor. I've heard from case workers that the medical staff in prisons delight in purposely not treating, under-treating, or mistreating prisoners' medical conditions. They just throw anti-psychotics at people because those medications keep the prisoners sedated and compliant, despite the fact that APs have serious side-effects that can be permanent and disabling.
- worik 6y agoWe have the opposite here (Otago, Aotearoa). I friend and neighbour of mine, on completing their nurses training, went to work at the local prison. The medical care they dispensed there was far above what the prisoners received out side. And we have a good general medical system. The guards may well have been sadistic when away from medical personnel, I cannot say. There are all sorts of problems of all sorts of different sorts - and if it bleeds it leads - but given that I despair at the reports I keep getting from the USA. ARe things realy getting that bad?
- heavyset_go 6y ago> ARe things realy getting that bad? It's always been this bad, it's just that people who weren't given a voice now have some new means to be heard and are actually being listened to instead of having their experiences discounted and discarded.
- jimbob45 6y agoI see no problem here. Kid should sue and win. Doctor gets investigated by the local/regional/national board of medicine and is disbarred for not practicing evidence-based medicine. Jail comes under investigation for their choice to hire the doctor (who ostensibly lacked the red flags to prevent his hiring). This is how the system works. It’s not like you can know which doctors are the bad apples before malpractice like this. “When I found out they were giving him the pill, I was like, why didn’t they ask me? When I found out what kind of pill was it, I was like, this is terrible,” the father said. “He’s only 16, and they were forcing him to take it.” This is the only bit in question. Seems like the jail should be found culpable for not notifying the parent of any treatment details.
- eCa 6y ago”I see no problem here. Kid should sue and win.” If there were no problem the kid would have nothing to sue over. If your computer crashes but your backups work, you still have a problem. This is the backup system working.
- totalZero 6y agoI mean, there's obviously a problem here.
- jimbob45 6y agoTo me, it seems like the system is working as intended. Rather well, actually, because a bad doctor was brought to light with a fairly benign case rather than something potentially deadly later on.
- cryptoz 6y agoThe system is working rather well because an innocent kid has been hurt? What kind of system is that? That's a cruel and horrible 'system' and needs to be completely rethought.
- RIMR 6y agoThe fact that a child fell victim to this kind of calculated medical misconduct in the first place is pretty clear evidence that the system is not "working as intended". How often does stuff like this happen, but we don't hear about it? Jails and prisons are human rights black holes.
- lowdose 6y agoA woman that uses the pill as birth control consumes 0.00365 gram of estrogen a year. At a consumption price of the pill for $300 a gram of estradiol is thus worth $82,191.79. Compare that to $44 for a gram of gold and you wonder if big Pharma is ready for disruption?
- bluedevil2k 6y agoYou’re not factoring in labor, packaging, pharmacy profit, pharmacist wages, insurance company profit. If you think you can do it cheaper, then go for it
- jnosCo 6y agoSeems like at least two of those could be removed by universal healthcare.
- gruez 6y agoI presume you're talking about pharmacy profit and insurance company profit. "universal healthcare" just means everyone's covered. It doesn't mean everything's owned & operated by the government. That means there can still be private insurance companies and pharmacies, both making a profit.
- Latty 6y agoI would assume they are referring to most of the current suggestions for universal healthcare in the US, which follow a centralised model where a central body could collectively negotiate for drug prices (as the NHS does here in the UK, very effectively).
- gruez 6y ago>which follow a centralised model where a central body could collectively negotiate for drug prices That's orthogonal to universal healthcare or even a single payer system. There's nothing preventing you from having the whole country be represented collectively, but still have private insurers, like in germany. https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2019/how-drug-prices-are-negotiated-germany https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2019/how-drug-prices-a...
- stupidcar 6y agoThis reads like the plot of a dystopian young adult sci-fi novel. Children who resist authority being diagnosed with a "behavioural disorder" and being forcibly given hormones by an evil doctor. Yet apparently this is the reality of modern society.
- leesec 6y agoone flew over the cuckoos nest?
- throwaway_USD 6y agoIts funny you cite the novel whereas the author, psychedelic guru Ken Kesey, based the book off his real life experience working as a nurses aid in a psychiatric ward while simultaneously being part of a CIA program testing hallucinogens. For those unfamiliar with the back story of the novel, Kesey conceived the plot and characters while tripping on peyote while at work in the ward...his revelation being the patients were the sane ones and the workers enforcing the rules where insane, which was a metaphor for the modern dystopia he lived in. Times Magazine described it as: "a roar of protest against middlebrow society's Rules and the invisible Rulers who enforce them."
- xiphias2 6y agoI believe it has been happening all the time, not just in modern society, we just have better information about it.
- dsun179 6y agoI remember when I had "strange behaviors" as young boy. Some times later i was circumcised. 30 years later I still suffer from it. I want to get kids soon. I hope they get a strange as I was. Stupid, funny, dangerous.
- __blockcipher__ 6y agoYou might already be aware, but it is possible to reclaim most of what was lost via the principle of tissue expansion. It’s called foreskin restoration and allows you to regrow basically everything except the frenulum/ridged band. It’s time-consuming and takes awhile to learn how to tug properly, and in a certain sense can be psychologically painful to go through, but the results I’ve personally seen so far have been very encouraging. Sorry again to hear what happened to you.
- concordDance 6y agoWhy is this relevant to Hackernews?
- qwerty456127 6y agoBecause that's a kind of biohacking.
- zozbot234 6y agoCruel and unusual punishment being referred to as "biohacking", sounds like typical Hacker News.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- krustyburger 6y agoI think there’s more than a hint of transphobia in the comment too, given that hrt is used in gender transitioning.
- qwerty456127 6y agoDefinitely not. I'm a passionate biohacker (normal people get shocked with how many different pills I self-prescribe) and trans admirer (yet I actually believe forcing people this way is an atrocity, they can only choose for themselves). What I actually hate, however, is political correctness (people who take "inappropriate" humor seriously and actually get or pretend offended - that's whom we should treat with hormones! ;-).
- krustyburger 6y agoI’ll take your word for it. But I have certainly seen transitioning (which involves estrogen when the transition is mtf) referred to as biohacking in a way I don’t have to pretend to be offended by.
- 6y ago
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago> was diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder, or ODD, two days after he was arrested and housed at Eastlake Juvenile Hall in June 2019, the lawsuit said. Medical records reviewed by The Times show that the teen’s testosterone levels were “slightly high” when the doctor who diagnosed him prescribed daily doses of estrogen This is sickening, not so much for the drugging but the 'oppositional defiant disorder' interpretation. Knuckle under, kid. However, simply on a factual basis (I assume the story was based on an established practice anyway), I remember as a kid reading a story in 1001 nights where some male child was castrated to stop him being bolshy. They do that to animals for the same reason and with the same effect. There's precedent.
- ColanR 6y ago> They do that to animals for the same reason and with the same effect. There's precedent. Nice connection.
- tchaffee 6y agoCastration reduces testorone. Estrogen does not reduce testorone as far as I know. Which is why transgender women take both estrogen and testorone blockers. If the doctor had prescribed a testorone blocker you might have a point about precedent.
- swayvil 6y ago"oppositional defiant disorder" That's what they call mouthy rebels these days
- soulofmischief 6y agoIt sounds quite Orwellian. I fondly remember being written up almost literally a hundred times throughout school for "willful disobedience" and being sent to the "behavior modification center" as punishment.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ardit33 6y agono, that's what they usually call young 'psychopaths' that act out, aka 'sociopaths'... there is a high correlation between the two, but no psychologist wants to label a kid as a sociopath... I had one, in class (5th or 6th grade), and I remember the experience was eye opening. Teachers had to spend a copius amount of energy just to keep him in check.... his behavior would oscillate between funny/to scary dangerous within minutes. at some point he got in trouble for trying to put the classroom on fire (see how fast do the desks lit/catch fire).... and got trouble again for trying to do the same to his neighbors. He eventually got removed (and I assumed ended up in juvenile correction facility). Normally this label is not given to kids that have run of the mill problems (aka ADD/ADHD), but only for serious cases.
- zozbot234 6y ago> no, that's what they usually call young 'psychopaths' that act out, aka 'sociopaths'... That would be "conduct disorder" actually, something rather more severe than just ODD. If a kid shows a pattern of behaving in blatantly antisocial ways that demonstrate a severe lack of empathy for others, that's pretty much it. Setting stuff on fire is actually a tell-tale sign, as is willful animal cruelty.
- soulofmischief 6y agoPsychopathy and sociopathy are two markedly different disorders, despite sharing some common symptoms. It would be prudent the difference between the two before assuming an authoritative stance on APD. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/wicked-deeds/201801/the-differences-between-psychopaths-and-sociopaths https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/wicked-deeds/201801/...
- justAnotherNET 6y agoThe right is responsible for plenty of problems and people have no problems discussing that, yet I’ve found here and elsewhere people are uncomfortable discussing this clearly leftist phenomenon. No one on the political or social right is pushing to inject kids as young as 8 with sterilizing hormones.
- mwfunk 6y agoNo one on the left is either?!? What the hell dude, did you take a wrong turn from Infowars or something?
- d33lio 6y agoWell, unfortunately it looks like the evil gender-bender doctor dystopia has been alive and well in CA for some time now. Slow clap...
- fortran77 6y agoIt's terrible how the lives of young men don't matter.
- justaguyhere 6y agoNot just young men, all men I suppose. Breast cancer receives tons of attention and money compared to testicular cancer. Men's rights movements are made fun of. Sexual assaults on men is funny while the same on women is horrifying. Casually making jokes about it in movies is okay, as long as the victim is male. etc etc.
- slg 6y agoMore men generally die annually from breast cancer[1] than testicular cancer[2]. The reason men's rights movements are mocked is because of comments like this that equate any possible problem men have as been on equal footing with all the problems that women have. [1] - https://www.cancer.net/cancer-types/breast-cancer/statistics https://www.cancer.net/cancer-types/breast-cancer/statistics [2] - https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/testicular-cancer/testicular-cancer-statistics https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseas...
- worik 6y agoAlso the men's rights activists are a mean and bitter group, generally. I got interested in the "men's rights movement" in the early nineties when I could really have done with the support. But all they could do was hate It is like comparing the "black power" movement - which generally is about how it is good to be black and the "white power" movement which is generally about how it is bad to be, erm, not white! I guess from a position of power and privilege it is hard to identify shortcomings and needs in your own community
- themgt 6y agoTesticular cancer is a bad example, but it looks like from some quick googling in USA ~42k women die each year from breast cancer while ~33k men die from prostate cancer. Overall "cancer mortality is higher among men than women (196.8 per 100,000 men and 139.6 per 100,000 women)"[1] Significantly higher. Men on average live 5 less years than women. Cancer research funding relative to annual deaths[2] shows breast cancer far "overfunded" relative to everything else. Government breast cancer research funding looks generally double prostate cancer research funding[3] You can debate the above points or how exactly funding should be allocated, but if your response is to justify mocking any concerns, perhaps you are not really assessing the evidence in good faith. [1] https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/understanding/statistics https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/understanding/statistics. [2] https://cdn2.poz.com/75944_Northwestern-cancer-funding-deaths-rect1500.jpg_90c9a8a7-5154-4145-a105-d3c10d6d3faf.jpeg https://cdn2.poz.com/75944_Northwestern-cancer-funding-death.... [3] https://katatrepsis.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/us-funding.jpg https://katatrepsis.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/us-funding.j...
- atarian 6y agoIt's been a while since I've done biology, but if the boy was ingesting estrogen in a pill form, doesn't that also put additional strain on the liver?
- floatingatoll 6y agoTestosterone carries a significant risk of liver damage — even if it's injected. Estrogen doesn't, ingested or otherwise.
- Twixes 6y agoThat's interesting. Why the difference?
- floatingatoll 6y agoI'm not sure if science knows why yet. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3897047/ may be a good starting point, but IANAYD etc.
- jauer 6y agoA little, but not always enough to be a problem. I took 4x the does he was on for a year without any change in liver function markers. Some transfem people take 1-4x his does for life.
- ed25519FUUU 6y ago> “Estrogen is not a treatment for ODD. I can’t be more emphatic about that,” McGough said. “You won’t find a reference anywhere that supports the use of estrogen for ODD.” Well certainly the doctor got this theory from someplace. They believed this young man would be better behaved if he had less testosterone and more estrogen, and went ahead with a treatment against scientific evidence (and ethics quite frankly). So where did the doctor get this theory? Let's ask ourselves that question, and follow up with this question: what other theories are medical and science professionals getting that aren't science based?
- OminousWeapons 6y agoProbably many, but that's not really the problem. We want people to be developing and appropriately testing theories. What we don't want is: * Treating people against their will outside of specific extreme circumstances which this was not one of * Coercing vulnerable populations into treatment * Concealing treatment plans from guardians * Treating in a manner that is not in line with evidence based practice * Treating in a manner that is not designed to advance the patient's well-being but is instead designed to pacify the patient for another person's convenience * Running what amount to illegal clinical trials that have not been validated for medical and ethical soundness, safety, and legitimacy by a medical oversight board * Insurance fraud (I don't know how payments work in correctional facilities, but generally speaking there is zero probability this treatment plan would result in reimbursement from an insurer. I would naively assume they lied about what they were doing for reimbursement) As a healthcare practitioner, behavior like this makes me sick. The legal system should open up on this guy with all they've got.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- hexo 6y ago(deleting because of not funny unwise comment)
- dang 6y ago
- neonate 6y agohttps://archive.is/NSV1u https://archive.is/NSV1u
- tyho 6y agoThe following is not a comment on this particular incident and is far outside the overton window. Men, specifically young men, commit the overwhelming majority of violent crime. This is at a great cost to society. The victims suffer as a direct result of the crimes, the perpetrators suffer as a result of their necessary detention to protect the wider public, and detention itself is expensive. Would it be so terrible to offer the most violent offenders an option of becoming chemically "feminised", so as to expedite their safe return to society? Yes, is probably the correct answer, but it doesn't hurt to discuss the topic. From a utilitarian perspective it might offer an alternative to the existing criminal justice system, where recidivism and sentence length could be reduced substantially.
- TomJansen 6y agoYes, this is horrible and no, from a utilitarian perspective this does not make sense. You are basically argueing for chemical castration. This is exactly the kind of medicalization attitude which is very dangerous. The correct way isn't pumping our youth full with hormones or other chemicals, but giving them sufficient therapy and care and by ensuring that their environment in jail accommodates for a safe return into society, instead of turning juvinele youth into professional criminals and joining prison gangs.
- tyho 6y agoJust to be abundantly clear I think this is a terrible idea. But I'd like to see it dispassionately debated on its merits. One could make the argument that "sufficient therapy" is reminiscent of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. I do not know of any methods that can reliably work with the most violent of offenders. Chemical castration is evil, but so is life imprisonment. Which is lesser? Does it matter if it were a choice? I'm prepared to burn some more karma on this.
- totony 6y agoWhy would you favor chemical alterations instead of simply changing the laws so this large portion of the population doesn't feel ostracized? I'm not sure the current trend of labeling a lot of things as deficiencies is healthy for society. ADD, ODD, all that stuff should not be "treated" as much as it is today. Society should shape around how people are and not vice-versa. We're at a point where having testosterone is starting to be seen as a problem which could be remediated by chemical castration for some people, and this is truly disturbing.
- aezakmi 6y agoJust like my discord grooming servers. If you don't believe, a quick search for the name Nicholas Fedorov/aeromatic will yield something really fun!
- floatingatoll 6y agoThis doctor must lose their medical license for life. At best they are wildly incompetent, at worst they are maliciously inflicting harm upon a teen for personal or political reasons. Giving estrogen to men usually causes irreversible sterility for life. The doctor would have known this. The pharmacist would have known this. That they chose to proceed with the risk of sterilizing a boy without notifying his parents implies horrific things about the doctor's view of the lack of humanity of their patient. Edit: I added "the risk of" to the previous paragraph, as elsethread notes that the sterility outcome usually requires much longer dosing intervals. Noted, but if I remember correctly, men pursuing a change in gender are expected to sign their name or initial in the box at least ten times in a row in order to receive their prescription — once for each side effect, due to the severity and permanence of those side effects. Both doctor and pharmacist had a professional duty to review those severe side effects with the patient and their legal guardian.
- pgcj_poster 6y ago> men pursuing a change in gender are expected to sign their name or initial in the box at least ten times in a row in order to receive their prescription This is not true, at least not anywhere I've gotten Estradiol. Also, while I'm sure you intended to be respectful with your comment, most people getting this treatment see themselves as women who are changing their bodies to match their gender, not as men who are changing their gender.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- syshum 6y ago>>most people getting this treatment see themselves as women who are changing their bodies to match their gender, not as men who are changing their gender. I am assuming you have some sort of source showing that this person has the desire to transition? If not I am unclear why this fact matters in the context of this story of what appears to be a doctor forcing medication on a patient against both their and their guardians desire or consent
- ralmidani 6y agoIn the US, the criminal justice system is not concerned primarily with reforming criminals or deterring future crimes. It’s concerned mostly with making the lives of people convicted or accused of crimes (many of whom are innocent or otherwise had extenuating circumstances) absolutely miserable, retribution taken to the extreme (tangentially, I’m not against retribution in principle, but don’t think it should always be the only reason to punish someone). And any sort of “non-compliance” while retribution is being exacted leads to the misery being dialed up. Is there any civilized country other than the US where long prison terms in sadistic conditions is considered “normal”?
- dhosek 6y agoCoincidentally, today's Fresh Air is very much on topic. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/07/16/891438605/psychiatrist-americas-extremely-punitive-prisons-make-mental-illness-worse https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/07/16/8914386...
- syshum 6y agoRetribution should not be a part of any justice system. As retribution is not justice. Restitution, Rehabilitation and isolation should be the 3 goals of a true justice system. Victims should have a path to restitution when possible (some crimes this is not) Criminals should have a path to rehabilitation when possible (some crimes this is not) For when the other 2 fail, Isolation is the final step, isolation means we isolate people that have been proven to be a danger to others and do not have the ability to be rehabilitated. Retribution is just unethical, it makes the population of a system of retribution to be no better than the criminals they are abusing. Support for retribution is a visceral reaction but holds no value or place if the goal is justice.
- ponsin 6y agoRetribution is needed to prevent vigilante justice and to cause fear to potential criminals. Remember the story of the drunk driver who killed several people in a crash [0]? He was "punished" by going to a club med like rehab facility where he was taught about the wrongs of his actions by horse back riding. Imagine if all drunk drivers were punished that way? 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethan_Couch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethan_Couch
- ajharrison 6y agoThe absolute state of America.
- dang 6y agoWould you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? We're trying for a bit better than that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jml7c5 6y agoIn this thread could we have people preface their comments with the intent they're assuming of the doctor? It seems to be a split between "the doctor was using an non-indicated treatment { in an attempt at gender-bending | for unknown reasons }", and the discussion is a disaster because everyone is talking past each other.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- alkibiades 6y agoIn the future all men will be given their daily estrogen to get rid of toxic masculinity. if you object you need to stop mansplaining.
- williesleg 6y agoSoy Boy.
- mattyfo 6y agoSomething doesn't add up with this story and I suspect it's going to come out in the lawsuit. If the doctor REALLY did want to lower testosterone levels in the 16 year old, there's a slew of medications that would have been more effective (Spiro, Lupron, Bica, etc). That amount of Estradiol isn't going to do much to lower T levels.
- ggggtez 6y agoIt's possible the doctor knows something the parents of the kid don't. You don't treat the symptom (high T levels) you treat the disease (the behavior disorder). It's possible there is something about the boy's medical history that made it seem like this treatment would work better for his body chemistry, perhaps.
- grugagag 6y agoIt is possible that the doctor refused to talk not to ruin his case in court. But it is also possible he is incompetent and simply blew it.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- cafemachiavelli 6y agoAs someone who recently had surgery for gynecomastia that I've had since puberty, I feel sorry for the kid and hope the breast tissue will naturally resolve. The event is confusing for several reasons - not only are testosterone levels not linked to ODD, even if they were, there are drugs that can gently reduce testosterone production. Estrogen isn't one of them.
- pgcj_poster 6y agoThere's an evil part of me that thinks we should do something like this to most men. It's well known that testosterone increases aggression. We neuter most male mammals that humans have to interact with because they're too dangerous otherwise. It stands to reason that chemically castrating male humans would also make them a lot less dangerous. If we could bring down male crime levels to that of women, it would eliminate the majority of all violent crime. Of course, we'd need some uncastrated men for reproduction and jobs that require a lot of physical strength. But in the developed world, that would probably be a small percentage. Some women might find men less attractive that way... but I think others would like a guy who's more sensitive, has less male-pattern baldness, and has to put in an equal amount of work to orgasms. Some men would probably experience gender dysphoria, but I'm sure they could experiment with dosages to find a sweet spot that would be tolerable, and there are anti-androgens that can be taken without estrogen or with a very low dose of it. Also, if some cis people got gender dysphoria, maybe they'd finally start taking trans people seriously. Obviously, this would be wrong for the same reason as eugenics... but I can't manage to dismiss the thought that it would be a good idea on a practical level.
- dint 6y agoThis is a repulsive take. It’s so upsetting for me to read this that I’m feeling unable to articulate why. Not to mention the fact that you’ve posted this in the context of a story where a child’s life was harmed by such a nonconsensual procedure.
- Icyphox 6y agoI puked in my mouth after reading this. Didn't expect this level of retardation on HN.
- dang 6y agoPlease stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait to HN. You've been doing it repeatedly and we ban that sort of account. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- at_a_remove 6y agoOne thing not addressed here is that the surge of estrogen during puberty is what causes your long bones to fuse at the ends and you stop growing. It is possible that this young man's growth may have been permanently capped by this irresponsible behavior.
- twirlock 6y agoJust going to chime with everyone else pointing it out: BIG MYSTERY
- Animats 6y agoGoogle: Oppositional defiant disorder: A condition in which a child displays argumentative behavior towards people in authority. Really. Not violence. Just "argumentative behavior".
- mantap 6y agoThe Wikipedia page for that is something to behold, reading it you get the distinct impression that someone has succeeded in convincing the psychiatric profession to make an entire stage of human development into a disorder.
- christkv 6y agoThey should make the doctor take the treatment he prescribed for the kid for the same duration. Only fair he experience what he did with malice.
- michaelmrose 6y agoIs it the Danny Wang in Duarte CA?
- syspec 6y agoThe I love when people have perfect names. The victims lawyers name is Ouchi. This is pretty tragic, reading the article there is no way this is an isolated incident
- Peepootoler 6y agoWang, Oh, Ouchi... Asian names can be hilarious for an English speaker. The incident itself is not that hilarious on the other hand.
- LyndsySimon 6y agoThe reverse is also true - I recall reading an artucle that lists English names and their (often offensive) homonyms in Cantonese.
- LyndsySimon 6y agoThere is a hypothesis, “nominative determinism”, that posits that people tend to gravitate toward professions that “match” their names. I don’t fully buy it, but it’s an interesting idea that has at least some evidence to support it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_determinism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominative_determinism
- oedmarap 6y agoTangential is yesterday's JRE podcast with Abigail Shrier[0] who's a journalist for the Wall Street Journal. The interview discusses her new book's findings about hormone therapy given specifically to teenage girls through the means of "informed consent", which led to terrible developmental and reproductive damage that was in most cases irreversible. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtftWcgXjdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtftWcgXjdg
- loraa 6y agoI guess they ran out of video games and Netflix to brainwash him with.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- hardsoftnfloppy 6y agoI guess when you defund the police they can only afford to hire Chinese quacks.
- dang 6y agoWe've banned this account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.