7 ms·

I hate the fact that in my current role, I am expected to give my colleagues ‘constructive feedback’. It seems like a minefield , when I am trying to focus on

by GEBBL 6y ago

I hate the fact that in my current role, I am expected to give my colleagues ‘constructive feedback’. It seems like a minefield , when I am trying to focus on my own role, that I have to negotiate the feelings of a colleague as I leave feedback on them. I’d prefer to leave only positive feedback, but what my boss wants is that I need to find an improvement that my colleague has to make. I don’t like it.

parliament32 6y ago
I've found PRP to be a godsend when you're expected to give "feedback". PRP is praise-reprimand-praise: so construct your comment where your negative feedback is sandwiched between two positive feedback items. People respond well to it.
- codazoda 6y ago
  It's not exactly PRP but I also like to give negative and then positive feedback. I asked some of my employee's about this, however, and some of them mentioned that receiving positive feedback after negative makes the positive feedback seem superficial. Different people prefer to receive feedback in different ways. It's more difficult but we should try to understand how people like to receive feedback (positive or negative) and provide that feedback in the way they prefer to receive it.
- gfody 6y ago
  ah the shit sandwich, I trust you're joking ;)
  - parliament32 6y ago
    If you're having a bad time with PRP you're just trash at implementing it. PRP doesn't mean you should literally "Good job on X. You fucked up on Y. Also good job on Z." -- you still need to have some human interaction skills. But in general, your feedback (whether it's a conversation or an email or a comment on a PR) should follow the general guidelines for what order to present things in.
    - gowld 6y ago
      You raise an interesting point. Your comment failed at PRP. You showed how difficult giving criticism is.
      - oblio 6y ago
        Kudos to you, my kind interlocutor. At first I found your haiku hard to parse. But in the end I was enlightened by it.
- jlokier 6y ago
  Ah, wordplay. You're saying it works? I'm not convinced. My experience is that it sows distrust in praise. "You just said something unpleasant to me, so I don't trust the praise you added after is genuine, and now I don't trust the praise you said before is genuine either. I think you added them just to fit the form of a PRP. Maybe that's what you do all the time. So I think you're basically lying to me about the praise, insulting my intelligence and trying to manipulate me by crude emotional bullshit. This makes me angry". Which is not very useful if you have constructive critical feedback to give, as it is no longer constructive. In my view, dressing up a shit filling in a sandwich is a form of shallow manipulative wordplay, and for at least some people, it makes them upset and angry, even if they don't show it immediately. Because if it's done often it will make them distrustful. In some sense, they are right to become distrustful. Most people need to feel some amount of socially rewarding praise and recognition in their working lives. But if you're often using PRP... you lose the ability to convey praise to them in ways they will experience as actual for real praise. So I advocate for separating these things out more, and making it known that is intentional. When there is shit filling to deliver compassionately, work on the meaning itself, not dissonantly trying to simultaneously convey it and hide it, which puts people who notice on permanent alert that your words do not mean what they initially sound like.
opportune 6y ago
Constructive feedback and most other negative feedback is really aspirational at the company level. It sounds good for HR to try to say it’s a company “value” and to encode it in reviews. In reality it’s never ever worth it to give constructive feedback to peers or upward (downward is OK). It’s bad for social dynamics, cohesion, and morale, especially when it’s formalized as part of some review process. It’s essentially a trap - the only way to win is to not participate or to give very mild feedback.
- beefield 6y ago
  Is there a company that consists of people that actually are willing and interested in getting "constructive feedback"? Basically I think that it would mean that the people are so intereted in the quality of the work they are doing that anything that might make their work better is interesting even if it turns out they have done something "wrong" earlier. If there is , I might considering applying at some point. I assume that if there are, the companies must be relatively small, or in case of larger companies this might happen in selected departments like Skunk Works. It would just be so refreshing to be able to hear and say the occasional "Hey, you know, actually there is a much better/nicer/less stupid/more efficient way to do what you are doing" without needing to waste time to think how to say that.
  - ViViDboarder 6y ago
    I’m now a manager at my company and engineers often ask directly for constructive feedback. Either from me (I’m a former tech lead from the same team) or they’ll ask who can help them learn about specific topics. Feedback on the form you wrote would generally be well received by folks on my team (with the exception of “less stupid”). Either in person or on a code review. I’m at Yelp, so we’re considered a large tech company, but far smaller than FAANG. Also, this is how it is on my team. The culture can vary a bit team by team however most teams share similar cultures. If folks reading this are at Yelp and their team isn’t like this and considering leaving because of it, you should look into a transfer.
  - scaryclam 6y ago
    The company I work at has this culture. Feedback is valued greatly, not just at review time, but regularly. I've had people who report to me tell me that they think I was wrong or that they would like me to do things differently, and vice versa. The trick is to build trust and understand that when something's negative, it's from a place of care, not malice. We all want each other to grow, to get better and to keep being great in areas that don't need any work. It sounds cheesy, but it's true. Hands down the best company I've worked for and I hope that other companies can do the same. It is indeed refreshing to be able to hear/say "Hey, you know, actually there is a much better/nicer/less stupid/more efficient way to do what you are doing" and be sure that it's not going to be taken badly.
muffinman26 6y ago
Positive feedback is nice, but feedback on how to improve is incredibly useful. I really value constructive feedback and I spend a lot of time on providing helpful feedback when people ask for it. A short statement that a colleague did something badly is not very helpful, but taking the time to figure out how specifically they could improve and providing suggestions on how to do so usually hurts people's feelings less and helps them more. One coworker even specifically called out that they appreciated the time I put into providing feedback. What really infuriates me is that even though I take the time to provide good feedback on how to improve, other people don't return the favor. I'm young and lazy. I know that my work is terrible. Yet no one has bothered to call me out on it in years or given me meaningful suggestions on areas to work on. Constructive feedback might hurt someone's feelings for a few minutes, but if it is provides structure on how to improve in the future the recipient will come to appreciate it after a few minutes to calm down.
zjs 6y ago
Constructive feedback can be positive. "Hey GEBBL, you did a really good job on that project. It was great that you focused on the end-to-end problem, and not just the main part that PM asked for. This is something you're better at than some other members on your team -- do you think you could help me keep an eye out during design reviews for gaps along these lines?" It can also be useful to use a related positive to explain a negative. "Hey GEBBL, you're usually a good speaker, so I thought you'd want to know that I found your presentation this week a little hard to follow. I think it would have been easier to follow with a high-level overview like the one you included at the beginning of last week's." You can, of course, look at people's weaknesses to find opportunities for improvement, but you can also look at people's strengths. I think think the best feedback is not only constructive, but also motivating and actionable. For more difficult feedback to navigate, you should be able to funnel it through a manager. "Hey GEBBL's manager, I noticed that GEBBL checked in a change yesterday without testing it properly. It's not a major thing, but I know you're looking for opportunities to give GEBBL constructive feedback." (If you're going to do this, I suggest trying to do it in a balanced way; share positive feedback too so that it's clear you're not complaining all the time.)
op00to 6y ago
Just talk to your colleague first and ask them what you should say?
bananaface 6y ago
The way to solve this is to make constructive feedback private, or at least transient. Evaluate the final product, not the process used to get there. I want to be ripped the fuck apart when I can learn from it, but I'm not going to seek criticism if it's factored into performance reviews. I don't want to be scared to make mistakes, I want to be scared to ship mistakes.

by GEBBL 6y ago

parliament32 6y ago

I've found PRP to be a godsend when you're expected to give "feedback". PRP is praise-reprimand-praise: so construct your comment where your negative feedback is sandwiched between two positive feedback items. People respond well to it.

codazoda 6y ago
It's not exactly PRP but I also like to give negative and then positive feedback. I asked some of my employee's about this, however, and some of them mentioned that receiving positive feedback after negative makes the positive feedback seem superficial. Different people prefer to receive feedback in different ways. It's more difficult but we should try to understand how people like to receive feedback (positive or negative) and provide that feedback in the way they prefer to receive it.
gfody 6y ago
ah the shit sandwich, I trust you're joking ;)
- parliament32 6y ago
  If you're having a bad time with PRP you're just trash at implementing it. PRP doesn't mean you should literally "Good job on X. You fucked up on Y. Also good job on Z." -- you still need to have some human interaction skills. But in general, your feedback (whether it's a conversation or an email or a comment on a PR) should follow the general guidelines for what order to present things in.
  - gowld 6y ago
    You raise an interesting point. Your comment failed at PRP. You showed how difficult giving criticism is.
    - oblio 6y ago
      Kudos to you, my kind interlocutor. At first I found your haiku hard to parse. But in the end I was enlightened by it.
jlokier 6y ago
Ah, wordplay. You're saying it works? I'm not convinced. My experience is that it sows distrust in praise. "You just said something unpleasant to me, so I don't trust the praise you added after is genuine, and now I don't trust the praise you said before is genuine either. I think you added them just to fit the form of a PRP. Maybe that's what you do all the time. So I think you're basically lying to me about the praise, insulting my intelligence and trying to manipulate me by crude emotional bullshit. This makes me angry". Which is not very useful if you have constructive critical feedback to give, as it is no longer constructive. In my view, dressing up a shit filling in a sandwich is a form of shallow manipulative wordplay, and for at least some people, it makes them upset and angry, even if they don't show it immediately. Because if it's done often it will make them distrustful. In some sense, they are right to become distrustful. Most people need to feel some amount of socially rewarding praise and recognition in their working lives. But if you're often using PRP... you lose the ability to convey praise to them in ways they will experience as actual for real praise. So I advocate for separating these things out more, and making it known that is intentional. When there is shit filling to deliver compassionately, work on the meaning itself, not dissonantly trying to simultaneously convey it and hide it, which puts people who notice on permanent alert that your words do not mean what they initially sound like.

opportune 6y ago

Constructive feedback and most other negative feedback is really aspirational at the company level. It sounds good for HR to try to say it’s a company “value” and to encode it in reviews. In reality it’s never ever worth it to give constructive feedback to peers or upward (downward is OK). It’s bad for social dynamics, cohesion, and morale, especially when it’s formalized as part of some review process. It’s essentially a trap - the only way to win is to not participate or to give very mild feedback.

beefield 6y ago
Is there a company that consists of people that actually are willing and interested in getting "constructive feedback"? Basically I think that it would mean that the people are so intereted in the quality of the work they are doing that anything that might make their work better is interesting even if it turns out they have done something "wrong" earlier. If there is , I might considering applying at some point. I assume that if there are, the companies must be relatively small, or in case of larger companies this might happen in selected departments like Skunk Works. It would just be so refreshing to be able to hear and say the occasional "Hey, you know, actually there is a much better/nicer/less stupid/more efficient way to do what you are doing" without needing to waste time to think how to say that.
- ViViDboarder 6y ago
  I’m now a manager at my company and engineers often ask directly for constructive feedback. Either from me (I’m a former tech lead from the same team) or they’ll ask who can help them learn about specific topics. Feedback on the form you wrote would generally be well received by folks on my team (with the exception of “less stupid”). Either in person or on a code review. I’m at Yelp, so we’re considered a large tech company, but far smaller than FAANG. Also, this is how it is on my team. The culture can vary a bit team by team however most teams share similar cultures. If folks reading this are at Yelp and their team isn’t like this and considering leaving because of it, you should look into a transfer.
- scaryclam 6y ago
  The company I work at has this culture. Feedback is valued greatly, not just at review time, but regularly. I've had people who report to me tell me that they think I was wrong or that they would like me to do things differently, and vice versa. The trick is to build trust and understand that when something's negative, it's from a place of care, not malice. We all want each other to grow, to get better and to keep being great in areas that don't need any work. It sounds cheesy, but it's true. Hands down the best company I've worked for and I hope that other companies can do the same. It is indeed refreshing to be able to hear/say "Hey, you know, actually there is a much better/nicer/less stupid/more efficient way to do what you are doing" and be sure that it's not going to be taken badly.

muffinman26 6y ago

Positive feedback is nice, but feedback on how to improve is incredibly useful. I really value constructive feedback and I spend a lot of time on providing helpful feedback when people ask for it. A short statement that a colleague did something badly is not very helpful, but taking the time to figure out how specifically they could improve and providing suggestions on how to do so usually hurts people's feelings less and helps them more. One coworker even specifically called out that they appreciated the time I put into providing feedback. What really infuriates me is that even though I take the time to provide good feedback on how to improve, other people don't return the favor. I'm young and lazy. I know that my work is terrible. Yet no one has bothered to call me out on it in years or given me meaningful suggestions on areas to work on. Constructive feedback might hurt someone's feelings for a few minutes, but if it is provides structure on how to improve in the future the recipient will come to appreciate it after a few minutes to calm down.

zjs 6y ago

Constructive feedback can be positive. "Hey GEBBL, you did a really good job on that project. It was great that you focused on the end-to-end problem, and not just the main part that PM asked for. This is something you're better at than some other members on your team -- do you think you could help me keep an eye out during design reviews for gaps along these lines?" It can also be useful to use a related positive to explain a negative. "Hey GEBBL, you're usually a good speaker, so I thought you'd want to know that I found your presentation this week a little hard to follow. I think it would have been easier to follow with a high-level overview like the one you included at the beginning of last week's." You can, of course, look at people's weaknesses to find opportunities for improvement, but you can also look at people's strengths. I think think the best feedback is not only constructive, but also motivating and actionable. For more difficult feedback to navigate, you should be able to funnel it through a manager. "Hey GEBBL's manager, I noticed that GEBBL checked in a change yesterday without testing it properly. It's not a major thing, but I know you're looking for opportunities to give GEBBL constructive feedback." (If you're going to do this, I suggest trying to do it in a balanced way; share positive feedback too so that it's clear you're not complaining all the time.)

op00to 6y ago

Just talk to your colleague first and ask them what you should say?

bananaface 6y ago

The way to solve this is to make constructive feedback private, or at least transient. Evaluate the final product, not the process used to get there. I want to be ripped the fuck apart when I can learn from it, but I'm not going to seek criticism if it's factored into performance reviews. I don't want to be scared to make mistakes, I want to be scared to ship mistakes.