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Who is the greatest knife steel metallurgist of all time?

134 points by severine 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
gautamcgoel 6y ago
I'm a huge knife steel nerd, so it's cool to see this article get some love on HN. Currently, I own knives in S35VN, M390, Cruwear, and 52100, all Spyderco. If you've never carried an EDC knife before I suggest you pick up a Spyderco Manix or PM2/PM3 and try it out. There's a lot of engineering and craftsmanship that goes into making a quality knife which I think HN readers could appreciate. Also, they're just handy to have around.
- adrianN 6y ago
  A Spyderco Manix seems to cost about twice as much as a ~15 tool Victorinox. In what way is it better, given that it's just a knife?
  - nordsieck 6y ago
    > A Spyderco Manix seems to cost about twice as much as a ~15 tool Victorinox. In what way is it better, given that it's just a knife? I guess it really depends on what you care about. If you have the Victorinox mostly for the tools, then it's obviously better than the Spyderco. If you have it mostly for the blade, then the Spyderco will be better. The edge will be sharper and will last longer. Also, the lock is more ergonomic and probably stronger. If you really like the Victorinox and don't care that much about the cork screw, a Leatherman wave/charge just has much better tools and blade than Victorinox, and you can get the blade in s30v for a bit better performance.
  - notacoward 6y ago
    What kind of steel is in that Victorinox? How well does it take an edge (can it even take the same kind of edge), hold an edge, resist chipping, corrosion, etc. compared to the Spyderco? It might well be a better overall EDC tool, but since this is a story specifically about steel I'd guess that the answers to those questions would explain why 2x is literally a small price to pay for some people.
    - TallGuyShort 6y ago
      Victorinox uses a proprietary steel, which I hear good things about does seem to me to be a very good steel. That said, I'm still not a fan of Victorinox blades for much beyond letter opening because of their size & geometry. As others have said, if you want a knife, there are WAY better knives. If you want a bunch of tools, okay. Still partial to Leatherman myself, as much as I like the Swiss Army aesthetic.
      - leeoniya 6y ago
        i carry a knife but also a thin victorinox money clip. the scissors in it hold their edge very well and are extremely handy. the knife in the clip is also quite good, especially in situations where pulling out the more serious 3.4" blade is inappropriate. https://www.gpknives.com/victorinox-money-clip-red.html https://www.gpknives.com/victorinox-money-clip-red.html i also have a victorinox Fieldmaster multi-tool, but the knife in it does not get a lot of use since i cannot EDC the thing due to its heft. i've used the saw in it multiple times and that thing is fantastic.
        TallGuyShort 6y ago
        Oh that money clip is pretty cool. I would probably go for that if I carried cash much - but I pretty much just use cards now. >> i cannot EDC the thing due to its heft Ha ha! I EDC'd a WorkChamp for a long time. Super handy. Not that comfortable!
        leeoniya 6y ago
        > I would probably go for that if I carried cash much - but I pretty much just use cards now. i don't use it for cash, either. but it's extremely thin and is comfortable in the jeans front mini-pocket. much lower profile and no cheap plastic compared to their standard keychain knife: https://www.rei.com/product/403028/swiss-army-classic-knife https://www.rei.com/product/403028/swiss-army-classic-knife the clip portion of it goes high enough on the frame where you could use it as a pocket clip, with ~0.3" protruding upwards.
  - gautamcgoel 6y ago
    I think you're confusing two Sypderco models. The Manix costs about $120-130.
  - Doxon 6y ago
    If you need to cut things even a few times a week, I'd recommend trying a knife with a pocket clip and one-handed opening. Being able to have the knife ready in 2 seconds without having to put down what you're holding is both useful and gratifying. Spyderco's thumb-hole system works very well for one handed opening and the grip ergonomics on the Manix2 and Paramilitary2 are great. If those are too large for your tastes, the Spyderco Native is a good choice (while being harder to close one-handed)
    - gautamcgoel 6y ago
      I can easily close my PM2 with one hand, but still haven't figured out how to close my Manix 2 without using both hands. Is there a trick to it?
      - Doxon 6y ago
        Yeah, closing the Manix2 is harder than the PM2. Grip strength and practice are all I can recommend. I grip the handle with all my fingers (not covering the slot) with the butt/pommel nestled in the the palm. This gives you the leverage to reach forward with thumb and index finger to pull rearwards on the locking nubs. Then you can whip your wrist to get the blade to seat, or just reach forward with the thumb to pull it in. edit: when you've got the nubs pulled back, you have to give it a little shake shift the blade a little.
    - chiph 6y ago
      I've carried a Spyderco Ladybug for over a decade. If you get the serrated blade (and you should), you'll want a sharpener that works on them. The closed length is about 2-1/4" (57mm) Note that it has a locking blade, which makes it illegal in the UK, even though the length is under the limit. https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives
  - thinkmassive 6y ago
    The Spyderco is "just a knife" but the Victorinox is more of a multitool. Yes, the multitool has blades, but they're typically thin and don't lock back. Basically the Spyderco is excellent at many cutting tasks, and a Swiss Army Knife is rarely the best tool but might be the only one you have available for a wide variety of tasks. Choose the right tool for the job.
  - blacksmith_tb 6y ago
    I don't have one, but they are pretty different in terms of value proposition, a Victorinox is barely a knife (most are non-locking, which makes them only suited for opening letters), but has some extra tools tucked in that might come in handy, or not. As you pay more for folding knives you get better steel (for holding an edge), locking (for not cutting your fingers off), ergonomics in the handle. There are certainly diminishing returns, and past a point you're mostly paying for fancy materials in the scales of the handle, and a designer's signature. There are lots of cheap and cheerful Chinese-made knives that are still a lot sturdier that a Victorinox, though.
    - Ma8ee 6y ago
      In what kind of normal use of a knife do you risk that the blade folds and cuts your finger without a locking mechanism? I have some trouble visualise anything except possibly stabbing (which I don’t consider normal use).
      - blacksmith_tb 6y ago
        Can't say I do a lot of stabbing, other than boxes. But any kind of cutting where the material can hold onto the blade, like whittling a stick, or cutting a fair-sized piece of rope can cause a non-locking blade to fold onto your fingers.
  - m0llusk 6y ago
    They are tools, so let's start with the handles. The Manix handle has a shape which is thin enough to easily carry in pocket yet which fills the hand to enable not just one but a range of different solid grips for maximizing strength or control. The handle materials also make the knife extremely durable yet light even though it is relatively large. Deploying a Victorinox usually means using two hands and then not having a solid lock on the deployed blade. Putting the knife back is also a two handed gesture. While the blade has a stop around halfway to retracted there is still some risk involved. The Manix uses a Spyderco specific variation of a slider lock mechanism which allows the blade to be easily deployed using a range of fast flick or slow slide gestures that require only one hand. When the Manix blade is deployed and the slider lock is not manually held open it automatically locks solidly so that the blade does not move against the handle and the strength of the lock is such that the handle is more likely to fail than the lock itself. Retracting the Manix blade is as simple as pulling back on the slide and then letting the blade fall or swing back into place and while some prefer to use two hands it is easy and even fun to deploy and retract the Manix with one hand. When it comes to cutting there are many variables and the most important is the geometry of the blade. The broad flat grind of the Manix and the classic shape of the cutting edge make it easy to use for piercing and cutting action that slices instead of chopping. Superior materials mean that under use almost any of the Manix blade variants will hold an edge far longer than the Victorinox. So whether simply carrying the knife around just in case it is needed, deploying it for use, or actually cutting things the Manix is going to deliver easer and more reliable performance. It may be just a knife, but if you often use a knife then the convenience can quickly pile up to being less than a dollar--even pennies per actual use with each. And every time you can have the satisfaction of doing what needs to be done with minimal inconvenience. And it is also just plain fun: A fidgety machine that looks cool and works well can inspire confidence in the modern world the way so many other widgets can turn promise into a drag.
    - jaclaz 6y ago
      If we are talking multitools, a Leatherman would do nicely and it has blade lock (beside a S30V blade, possibly depending on models). Depending on the country (and possibly in the US depending on states) a folding knife that can be opened with a flick of the hand/wrist may be considered illegal (switchblade or more accurately "gravity knife"). See: https://www.akti.org/news/california-appellate-upholds-653k/ https://www.akti.org/news/california-appellate-upholds-653k/ In some places there are also contrasting theories on the legality of the "lock open", i.e. a Victorinox multitool or an old Leatherman without lock would "pass" but a (say) Leatherman Charge/Wave/Surge would be border line[1] or just over the border[2]. [1] if considered "multitool" [2] if considered "knife"
  - evilduck 6y ago
    m0llusk gave a great answer, but to add to it, they aren't the same types of knives either. You can buy a Victorinox Swiss Army knife (SAK) in exactly one blade steel and it's a stainless steel that's extremely soft, relatively speaking. That's actually a good thing for most casual users since it's fast and easy to sharpen, resilient to abuse, and being stainless, easy to maintain. However, it will not stand up to a lot of normal usage before the edge dulls and it just doesn't perform well anymore. By contrast, the Manix's base model uses S30V and you'll probably get three or four times as much use from it before it dulls. Spyderco is also a "knife enthusiast's knife company" and they make a lot of their knives available in other varieties of steel too. One variant is Maxamet (a tool steel uses to cut other metals) and you'd easily have an edge on that variant last probably 10 times longer than a Swiss Army knife, but at the cost of having a more brittle edge that is much more difficult to sharpen and it's not a truly stainless steel either, so you have to be mindful of rust and exposure. If you're in a job position where you use it a lot, like in a warehouse where you cut pallet straps and break down boxes constantly, the steel variant choice can easily be the difference between needing to touch up the edge every single day vs. once a week. Spyderco also makes an entire lineup of knives that can withstand saltwater exposure without needing constant maintenance, something that would render a Swiss Army knife useless quickly. Those attributes mean the cost difference can be just about anything if the real world choice is between "useless hunk of rust" and "usable". There are also economies of scale. Victorinox sells a lot more SAKs than Spyderco sells Manixes, they stamp out their blades by the thousands, if not millions. Spyderco probably doesn't make more than 100k Manix knives a year. A single Manix also has about as much steel in it as 2 or 3 SAKs (the blade is two or three times thicker at the spine), the handle material is nicer and more expensive, the construction is maintainable, the lock is stronger and more intricate. Also there's a machining cost difference, you don't stamp out thick blade blanks of high end steels, you have to cut them out of a billet. Grinder belts are a consumable that are used to sharpen a knife and they last a lot longer for soft steels vs. hard steels. That cost as well as the additional time an employee spends on it goes into the knife's cost. Spyderco's Manix is made in Golden Colorado, which also has a high cost of living and afaik they compensate their employees with a livable wage (I've been to their factory outlet several years in a row and keep seeing the same faces). All that said, knives can also be pocket jewelry and there's a whole world of stupidly expensive knives out there that enthusiasts push up the prices of, just like there's stupidly expensive cars, watches, keyboards, shaving razors, dress shoes, sneakers, streetwear, raw denim, etc, etc. You can easily reframe your question as to why a pair of Japanese raw denim jeans costs way more than twice as much as a pair of Wranglers at WalMart, given that they're just pants. Or why a Lamborgini costs more than a Civic, given that they're just cars, or why a Keycult keyboard resales second hand for $4k when you can buy a Dell OEM keyboard for $15.
  - _jal 6y ago
    Varying opinions already; here's one more. I see it as a category thing; a multitool has a knife, but is not a pocket knife. It is fine for cutting things in a pinch, but is terrible for much use - the ergonomics are all wrong, it is heavy and awkwardly shaped, and usually the blade shape is going to be very generic. As far as cost, it is like anything else - you pay for quality. Others have covered this, I don't have anything to add, other than a rule of thumb - if you've never sharpened a knife, you will probably not find much value in nice ones. As far as value, that's up to you. I use a knife daily, some days more than anything else I carry with me. If you don't need one, then it will be worth far less to you.
  - gknoy 6y ago
    After having a pocket knife close on my finger as a kid (when I did something stupid;)), I will never again use a pocketknife without a locking mechanism. A knife is a personal tool; Often what you're paying for is not just the blade quality, but also the ergonomics. For example, my dad has one that he really likes, but I dislike the blade shape, and there's another one I have that is just horribly shaped and feels terrible in the hand.
- balls187 6y ago
  Benchmade fanboy here. I went down a rabbit hole about EDC in WA state. There is a grey area that carrying a pocket knife requires a concealed weapons permit. Most folding knives have a pocket clip, but as far as I have found, it's unclear if that in an of itself would qualify as not concealing the weapon. https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/washington/ https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/washington/
  - leeoniya 6y ago
    my current EDC is a Benchmade 940-1 (S90V) - love it. used to EDC a Spyderco Centofante 4 (VG-10), but the flat blade profile is not a great all-arounder.
    - balls187 6y ago
      Great knife, I actually have the Goldclass Damascas 940. Obviously not as an EDC.
  - nordsieck 6y ago
    > I went down a rabbit hole about EDC in WA state. There is a grey area that carrying a pocket knife requires a concealed weapons permit. From what I can tell, the article you linked talked mostly about the illegality of concealed carrying a fixed blade knife. From what I can tell, it's perfectly legal to carry a folder as long as it doesn't possess any "bad" features[2] and is within the length restriction. The law in Seattle is pretty clear. > "Dangerous knife" means any fixed-blade knife and any other knife having a blade more than 3 1/2 inches in length[1]. ___ 1. https://library.municode.com/wa/seattle/codes/municipal_code?nodeId=TIT12ACRCO_SUBTITLE_ICRCO_CH12A.14WECO_12A.14.010DE https://library.municode.com/wa/seattle/codes/municipal_code... 2. My understanding is that a lot of otherwise normal "folding knives" fall under the "gravity knife" definition because the detent that holds the blade closes is often pretty weak (on purpose - it makes opening the knives one handed easier).
  - khm 6y ago
    There is no 'concealed weapons permit' in Washington state. The only available permit is pistol-specific.
- jakeogh 6y ago
  There's a review in here somewhere... https://www.youtube.com/user/mhanlen1 https://www.youtube.com/user/mhanlen1
- mr_overalls 6y ago
  Alternatively, consider supporting an artisan by buying a traditionally-forged blade. https://www.etsy.com/shop/BrightForestForge https://www.etsy.com/shop/BrightForestForge
  - stronglikedan 6y ago
    I dunno, I think I'd rather have the QC of a big player for an EDC. Those artisan blades are nice showpieces though.
- pjc50 6y ago
  I may regret this, but if I want a zero maintenance kitchen knife, what should I get? (No "EDC" in the UK, of course)
  - abawany 6y ago
    I am no knife nerd and it is heresy to bring it up in this thread but I am a big believer in ceramic knives. They cut clean, maintain an edge with no fuss, and just work. I recommend ones from Kyocera (made in Japan) since those have worked well for me. Also somewhat related, my peppermill is a Kyocera ceramic as well - works awesome compared to some of the others I've tried.
    - dangerscouse 6y ago
      Snap, got 3 Kyocera. Had them for years, never had them sharpened (though I'm told I can post them to do this) but hands down the best knives I've ever owned.
    - evilduck 6y ago
      Ceramics are neat but they chip easily are aren't readily sharpened or repaired at home (or even by most professional sharpeners). I think most people would be better off with a $40 Victorinox Fibrox.
      - abawany 6y ago
        I will concede that cheaper ceramic knives may chip easily but I have been using my set for about 6 years without any issues. The very first cheap ceramic knife I got chipped because I inadvertently dropped it from counter height on a tile floor. My stainless steel knives now just sit idle in drawers and I don't miss them one bit - haven't used one in years.
  - balls187 6y ago
    All kitchen knives worth anything require maintenance. Really good knives (i.e. usually made with good steel) will hold an edge, and require less sharpening before each use. Instead you can just hit them weekly or so with a sharpening ceramic. Cheaper knives need constant sharpening, and or don't hold an edge for anything, and require you to do all the work. Regardless, always wash and dry your knives by hand, and always cut on a cutting board. Me personally, I love Shun knives. Not cheap, but the time and effort saved when cooking make it worth the investment. My first shun is over 10 years old, and I have never sharpened it with a stone, just a sharpening ceramic.
- ftio 6y ago
  Genuine question, coming from the perspective of a city-dwelling office worker. I get the value of having a knife like this in the house (to open and break down cardboard boxes, etc). Why do you need to carry one around? Can you tell me about the last time you used it outside the house? I'm definitely over-indexing on my own experience here. Would love to have my mind opened to how carrying a knife regularly might improve my day. :)
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    I carry a benchmade knife everywhere. Why? Because all hell breaks loose if you have three kids and only one nectarine. Not that you need a fancy-ass knife for such work. Other field-knife activities include “what does the inside of this seed look like?” and “I got a splinter!” The only issue is even though the state of California permits them, the university of California forbids carrying knives, and there is one of those right in the middle of my city.
    - vvanders 6y ago
      Yup, +100 on Benchmade. Their locking mechanism is the best I've ever used(strong, can be used single handed with gloves on, and doesn't put your fingers in the path of the blade). We've got a small farm and put their blades through a workout, really a fan of the 535 as a non-flashy, lightweight EDC knife. Toured their factory pre-covid and it was pretty darn cool.
    - User23 6y ago
      Last I knew, in California you can legally walk around with a sword, so long it’s in a sheath hanging from your waist and not concealed.
      - jeffbee 6y ago
        I believe that's true. You can openly carry anything. The University system claims to forbid any folding knife with a blade that locks open (i.e. most any pocketknife) and any blade longer than 2.5 inches, carried openly or concealed.
- bitexploder 6y ago
  My office is right next to Spyderco’s. Didn’t know they had so much respect in the knife world.
- arwineap 6y ago
  Manix is a little long for some jurisdictions; sage 5 comes in at 3" so it is allowed almost everywhere
parsimo2010 6y ago
Wow, the author went pretty deep on this. I was expecting something like, “Bohler wins because M390 is best hurr dee hurr.” That’s the typical fare on knife forums at least (but substitute whichever super steel is your current favorite). But this piece really earns the “knife steel nerd” name and has a pretty solid history and covers a lot of technological developments over the years.
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bullen 6y ago
Japanese carbon-steel (should be called carbon-iron really because they rust) knives are way superior to anything these clowns made!
- jimnotgym 6y ago
  Superior in what way? I can imagine there are environments where the stainless properties of some of the steels in the article offset the properties of any mega sharp rusty iron knife. Japanese swords are amazing objects, but can chip when hit by another sword and are effectively ruined. European swords were renowned for their comparative toughness, however.
  - dmoy 6y ago
    Corollary: there's a lot higher parrying frequency in modern FIE-style fencing compared to modern kendo, which partially carries over because of the historically more brittle steel used in Japan.
- dang 6y ago
  "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
morelisp 6y ago
The greatest knife steel metallurgist of all time would surely be the one that doesn't even bother with steel or metallurgy anymore. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg3qsVzHeUt5_cPpcRtoaJQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg3qsVzHeUt5_cPpcRtoaJQ
RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
Question for the steel and knife enthusiasts. With modern metallurgy and machining techniques, could you design a sword that if transported back in time, would be looked at as a magical weapon (perhaps due to its strength, weight, cutting ability, etc?). What would you design?
- abakker 6y ago
  This isn't a complete answer, but, modern powder metallurgy along with exacting thermal control can make some blades that would probably take impact MUCH better than medieval ones. You could achieve more hardness and toughness with modern steels.
- hchz 6y ago
  Since the art of swordfighting is lost, you'd possibly engineer an incredible "long knife" that a professional swordsman would regard as unsuitable for combat or of mediocre value.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    We have enough old swords from when swordfighting was important that we should have some idea of what traits were valued.
    - hchz 6y ago
      It's not about making a pretty similar copy in terms of weight and balance. OP is asking about a weapon so superior it was viewed as magical. Let's think about this in terms of the standard engineering design-V: if you have nobody available for validating the design, how could you produce a product that you know to be so technologically superior that it appears to be "magic"?
mcguire 6y ago
The unknown dude sometime around 2000-1500 BCE who discovered you could get iron from ore?
- stx 6y ago
  This guy made it economical. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Gilchrist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Gilchrist
  - jjoonathan 6y ago
    I'd call https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer_process the major advance and Gilchrest-Thomas a refinement. Shrug.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  It should be noted that iron was still around before iron-ore mining. But metallurgists back then had to wait for meteorites to fall from the sky and craft those (King Tut's meteorite-iron sword). But yes, the leap from copper/bronze (which could be discovered by simply dropping rocks into a fire, since copper melts at low enough temperatures) vs iron, which is a process that requires much hotter temperatures + forging techniques, is huge. Learning to mix metals into alloys would eventually lead to the discovery of steel (mix iron + wood). Not as good as modern steel, but trial-and-error would get a process down over the centuries for sure. The "Iron Forge" seems to be the hardest step in the whole tech tree. Its a huge leap, no matter how I think about it. Maybe some old pre-history metallurgist was lucky enough to play with meteorite-iron and noticed similarities to ore somewhere else.
  - Sharlin 6y ago
    Bronze was revolutionary in other ways. Sure, copper occurs in native metallic form, but even once you find out that mixing it with certain minerals yields a much better metal, you have other problems. Namely that the mineral that gives the best alloy, cassiterite, or SiO2, only occurs in large quantities thousands of kilometers away from your copper deposits. Trade between regions that had hitherto had little contact became a thing. Iron, as known to the ancients, was in many ways inferior to bronze. Iron with low carbon content is malleable but soft, whereas iron with too much carbon is hard but brittle. It took a long time for people to painstakingly learn to make iron that was consistently as good as bronze, and even longer to learn how to further refine iron into consistent-quality steel, a process that also required huge amounts of energy compared to bronzemaking.
nickbauman 6y ago
What about the unsung blacksmith of Japan who basically created a variant of Damascus Steel to make the swords for Samurai starting around 1100 AD?
- hinkley 6y ago
  The lost art of sword forging. I still find it hilarious that 'Damascus steel' was a snow-job by the merchants to keep people from cutting out the middle man, by naming it after a place half a continent away from where it was being sourced. You may be buying it from Damascus but that crucible steel was coming from Hyderabad.
  - thdrdt 6y ago
    What a lot of people also don't know is that forging doesn't give the steel it's strength. Forging is done because it is way easier/cheaper than melting and casting it. Quenching and tempering gives it it's desired strength.
    - newacct583 6y ago
      Was. These days the labor involved in hand-forging a part dominates and cast alloys are everything anyone uses for anything, outside of oddball boutique communities like fancy knife aficionados.
    - hinkley 6y ago
      My understanding was that forging is work hardening (but hard and strong are not the same thing), annealing cancels it out, which is why quenching and tempering are important. Also the story of the structure of the metal is a bit different when you've folded it 100's of times. No blacksmith or foundry is getting that sort of fine work in their material.
      - catalogia 6y ago
        Forging squeezes the slag out, thereby purifying the steel. As far as I am aware this was the primary mechanism by which folding steel (which was done about a dozen times, not hundreds; those larger numbers come from 2^[n folds]) strengthened Japanese blades.
stx 6y ago
I would not call him a metallurgist but this guy has tested a bunch of steels using an unscientific rope cut test and documented them in a spreadsheet. He was the first one that convinced me to spend over $100 for a cpm-s30v knife and it was way better then anything I had before in edge retention. His data cant be that bad though because I built a model to predict the number of cuts for a blade using edge angle and metal compounds (no real way to take into account heat treat though). It was relatively accurate for the less exotic steels. I should really share that with the world. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b_rNfdJnL9oyn-JoL9yUHhUmDLAP1hJ1dN_0q5G4tug/edit#gid=1607644856 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b_rNfdJnL9oyn-JoL9yU... He also records videos of himself and posts them to his youtube channel along with other knife reviews. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdICfnpxD9uzHLaSr3DN55g https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdICfnpxD9uzHLaSr3DN55g
- Gertig 6y ago
  As someone who has made their own knife from scratch(ish) this channel is gold!
  - ethbro 6y ago
    For anyone who hasn't, would highly recommend. Railroad spikes are cheap and easy to hammer. Not great steel, but great for practicing metalwork.
- Daniel_sk 6y ago
  Wow, nice. I have only one pocket knife and that’s the lightweight blue Benchmade 535 Bugout and I just found out it’s made of the cpm-s30v steel, nice :).
adictator 6y ago
If one is talking about steel/iron metallurgists of all time, you cannot ignore Indian metallurgists. Some iron implements built in ancient India match or even surpass the quality of similar implementations of current time.
Havoc 6y ago
I was expecting more exotic names frankly. That's my ignorance speaking perhaps, but to me top metallurgist would be Damascus steel and maybe Japanese swords?
- tudorw 6y ago
  https://blog.knife-depot.com/link-between-samurai-swords-and-japanese-nuclear-plants/ https://blog.knife-depot.com/link-between-samurai-swords-and...
cycrutchfield 6y ago
I'm not an EDC knife kind of guy, but I have spent a lot of time and money on kitchen knives. SG-2 (aka R2) is pretty much the best that I have tried in terms of edge retention, ease of sharpening, and convenience (i.e. rust-resistant).
ChuckMcM 6y ago
Great article. A long time ago I started collecting exemplars of edged weapons (swords, knives, axes) for no reason other than I found the aesthetic interesting. But in collecting these things you may find, as I did, that just looking at them gets to be boring so you start reading about them. When was this kind of sword invented? Who used it? For what? What replaced it? What came before it? Etc. Before too long you may find that you are looking at two parallel universes that are interlocked by expressions of intent. In one universe are people figuring out what makes metal have the properties it does and how can I change them? And the other universe is people looking at what metal can do "now" and applying it to their creative process in weaponry. It is an amazing tapestry of complexity behind the simple appreciation of "that's a cool sword/knife"
- ethbro 6y ago
  Naval construction history has odd connections too, as one might imagine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_armour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_armour
JohnL4 6y ago
Why is this even a topic on HN, with 77 (+ mine) comments?
- dang 6y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
causality0 6y ago
Several years ago there used to be a site called KnifeTests where a heavyset man dressed like a serial killer put a variety of cheap and very expensive knives through horrific levels of abuse. Using the tip to dig through a 2x4, hammering it through a steel pipe, putting in a vice and standing on it, bending the blade back and forth, slicing a variety of materials including concrete. The one thing that really stood out was INFI steel. That stuff may as well be magic. It's honestly hard to even get anything made with it these days but if I had to trust my survival to one metal INFI would be it.
- lioeters 6y ago
  > INFI is a proprietary steel and heat-treat protocol developed by Busse Combat Knife Co. https://www.bussecombat.com/about-our-steel-infi/ https://www.bussecombat.com/about-our-steel-infi/
  - causality0 6y ago
    Good to see they're back to normal operations. Last time I looked them up a few years ago they didn't actually have any knives for sale.
lioeters 6y ago
Not steel, but I was impressed to learn about the physics of obsidian knives produced during the Mayan civilization: > When skillfully worked, the edges of prismatic blade made from obsidian can reach the molecular level, i.e., the material has a cutting edge that is only one molecule thick. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian_use_in_Mesoamerica#cite_note-5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian_use_in_Mesoamerica#ci...
- ethbro 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_knife#Modern_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_knife#Modern_use
  - lioeters 6y ago
    Fascinating! > [Glass knives] were once the blade of choice for the ultra-thin sectioning required in transmission electron microscopy because they can be manufactured by hand. > ..Some labs still use glass knives because they are significantly less expensive than diamond knives. A common practice is to use a glass knife to cut the block which contains the sample to near the location of the specimen to be examined. > Then the glass knife is replaced by a diamond blade for the actual ultrathin sectioning. This extends the life of the diamond blade which is used only when its superior performance is critical. > Obsidian, a naturally occurring volcanic glass, can also be used to make sharp glass knives; obsidian surgical scalpels are available commercially.
    - ethbro 6y ago
      I have family in pathology. Labs do a lot of sample sectioning before microscopy. Thin enough to stain and visualize internal structures (think onion skin). PS: Never mention anything about this around TSA.
lacker 6y ago
I have never interacted with "knife nerds" before, but I sense their presence here. I want to get a good knife to take camping, anyone have a recommendation?
- iratewizard 6y ago
  Pocket knife sized? It's hard to beat the quality of a good leatherman. Larger? Ontario Mk3 is a great fixed blade option.
- vvanders 6y ago
  Camping knife? Unless you don't have a multitool a leatherman will be far more useful and is a usable knife in its own. Most EDC(Every Day Carry) knives are sufficient for most of what would come up camping. If you're going to carry anything bigger a hatchet is a lot more handy. That said if you're looking for something decent Benchmade, Spyderco and Buck all make solid knives. I'm partial to Benchmade mostly because their locking mechanism works with a single hand in a way that doesn't put your fingers in the path of the blade and can be used with gloves. 535, 970 and Griptilian are all fantastic knives that will take a beating and are easy to carry. I have a 535 that I use on the farm and is more than strong enough for anything I throw at it. A knife that you have on you more often and easy to carry is better than a heavier or larger one. Some blade lengths are also illegal in certain cities so staying under 3" is a good idea. I usually carry a light pocket knife, flashlight and small-ish multitool which covers most of the bases.
  - ulisesrmzroche 6y ago
    I'm also a big Benchmade fan. Great company. I used the Bugout forever until a couple months ago when I started using the Grizzly Ridge. Either way you can't go wrong.
  - mrexroad 6y ago
    This. I’ve had a Benchmade 943 in my pocket every day for more than a decade, but still pack a multitool when camping. Had other knives prior, but kinda lost interest in anything new after getting the 943. Except when wearing a suit... still wouldn’t mind finding a blade a bit more suit-able.

134 points by severine 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

I'm a huge knife steel nerd, so it's cool to see this article get some love on HN. Currently, I own knives in S35VN, M390, Cruwear, and 52100, all Spyderco. If you've never carried an EDC knife before I suggest you pick up a Spyderco Manix or PM2/PM3 and try it out. There's a lot of engineering and craftsmanship that goes into making a quality knife which I think HN readers could appreciate. Also, they're just handy to have around.

adrianN 6y ago
A Spyderco Manix seems to cost about twice as much as a ~15 tool Victorinox. In what way is it better, given that it's just a knife?
- nordsieck 6y ago
  > A Spyderco Manix seems to cost about twice as much as a ~15 tool Victorinox. In what way is it better, given that it's just a knife? I guess it really depends on what you care about. If you have the Victorinox mostly for the tools, then it's obviously better than the Spyderco. If you have it mostly for the blade, then the Spyderco will be better. The edge will be sharper and will last longer. Also, the lock is more ergonomic and probably stronger. If you really like the Victorinox and don't care that much about the cork screw, a Leatherman wave/charge just has much better tools and blade than Victorinox, and you can get the blade in s30v for a bit better performance.
- notacoward 6y ago
  What kind of steel is in that Victorinox? How well does it take an edge (can it even take the same kind of edge), hold an edge, resist chipping, corrosion, etc. compared to the Spyderco? It might well be a better overall EDC tool, but since this is a story specifically about steel I'd guess that the answers to those questions would explain why 2x is literally a small price to pay for some people.
  - TallGuyShort 6y ago
    Victorinox uses a proprietary steel, which I hear good things about does seem to me to be a very good steel. That said, I'm still not a fan of Victorinox blades for much beyond letter opening because of their size & geometry. As others have said, if you want a knife, there are WAY better knives. If you want a bunch of tools, okay. Still partial to Leatherman myself, as much as I like the Swiss Army aesthetic.
    - leeoniya 6y ago
      i carry a knife but also a thin victorinox money clip. the scissors in it hold their edge very well and are extremely handy. the knife in the clip is also quite good, especially in situations where pulling out the more serious 3.4" blade is inappropriate. https://www.gpknives.com/victorinox-money-clip-red.html https://www.gpknives.com/victorinox-money-clip-red.html i also have a victorinox Fieldmaster multi-tool, but the knife in it does not get a lot of use since i cannot EDC the thing due to its heft. i've used the saw in it multiple times and that thing is fantastic.
      - TallGuyShort 6y ago
        Oh that money clip is pretty cool. I would probably go for that if I carried cash much - but I pretty much just use cards now. >> i cannot EDC the thing due to its heft Ha ha! I EDC'd a WorkChamp for a long time. Super handy. Not that comfortable!
        leeoniya 6y ago
        > I would probably go for that if I carried cash much - but I pretty much just use cards now. i don't use it for cash, either. but it's extremely thin and is comfortable in the jeans front mini-pocket. much lower profile and no cheap plastic compared to their standard keychain knife: https://www.rei.com/product/403028/swiss-army-classic-knife https://www.rei.com/product/403028/swiss-army-classic-knife the clip portion of it goes high enough on the frame where you could use it as a pocket clip, with ~0.3" protruding upwards.
- gautamcgoel 6y ago
  I think you're confusing two Sypderco models. The Manix costs about $120-130.
- Doxon 6y ago
  If you need to cut things even a few times a week, I'd recommend trying a knife with a pocket clip and one-handed opening. Being able to have the knife ready in 2 seconds without having to put down what you're holding is both useful and gratifying. Spyderco's thumb-hole system works very well for one handed opening and the grip ergonomics on the Manix2 and Paramilitary2 are great. If those are too large for your tastes, the Spyderco Native is a good choice (while being harder to close one-handed)
  - gautamcgoel 6y ago
    I can easily close my PM2 with one hand, but still haven't figured out how to close my Manix 2 without using both hands. Is there a trick to it?
    - Doxon 6y ago
      Yeah, closing the Manix2 is harder than the PM2. Grip strength and practice are all I can recommend. I grip the handle with all my fingers (not covering the slot) with the butt/pommel nestled in the the palm. This gives you the leverage to reach forward with thumb and index finger to pull rearwards on the locking nubs. Then you can whip your wrist to get the blade to seat, or just reach forward with the thumb to pull it in. edit: when you've got the nubs pulled back, you have to give it a little shake shift the blade a little.
  - chiph 6y ago
    I've carried a Spyderco Ladybug for over a decade. If you get the serrated blade (and you should), you'll want a sharpener that works on them. The closed length is about 2-1/4" (57mm) Note that it has a locking blade, which makes it illegal in the UK, even though the length is under the limit. https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives
- thinkmassive 6y ago
  The Spyderco is "just a knife" but the Victorinox is more of a multitool. Yes, the multitool has blades, but they're typically thin and don't lock back. Basically the Spyderco is excellent at many cutting tasks, and a Swiss Army Knife is rarely the best tool but might be the only one you have available for a wide variety of tasks. Choose the right tool for the job.
- blacksmith_tb 6y ago
  I don't have one, but they are pretty different in terms of value proposition, a Victorinox is barely a knife (most are non-locking, which makes them only suited for opening letters), but has some extra tools tucked in that might come in handy, or not. As you pay more for folding knives you get better steel (for holding an edge), locking (for not cutting your fingers off), ergonomics in the handle. There are certainly diminishing returns, and past a point you're mostly paying for fancy materials in the scales of the handle, and a designer's signature. There are lots of cheap and cheerful Chinese-made knives that are still a lot sturdier that a Victorinox, though.
  - Ma8ee 6y ago
    In what kind of normal use of a knife do you risk that the blade folds and cuts your finger without a locking mechanism? I have some trouble visualise anything except possibly stabbing (which I don’t consider normal use).
    - blacksmith_tb 6y ago
      Can't say I do a lot of stabbing, other than boxes. But any kind of cutting where the material can hold onto the blade, like whittling a stick, or cutting a fair-sized piece of rope can cause a non-locking blade to fold onto your fingers.
- m0llusk 6y ago
  They are tools, so let's start with the handles. The Manix handle has a shape which is thin enough to easily carry in pocket yet which fills the hand to enable not just one but a range of different solid grips for maximizing strength or control. The handle materials also make the knife extremely durable yet light even though it is relatively large. Deploying a Victorinox usually means using two hands and then not having a solid lock on the deployed blade. Putting the knife back is also a two handed gesture. While the blade has a stop around halfway to retracted there is still some risk involved. The Manix uses a Spyderco specific variation of a slider lock mechanism which allows the blade to be easily deployed using a range of fast flick or slow slide gestures that require only one hand. When the Manix blade is deployed and the slider lock is not manually held open it automatically locks solidly so that the blade does not move against the handle and the strength of the lock is such that the handle is more likely to fail than the lock itself. Retracting the Manix blade is as simple as pulling back on the slide and then letting the blade fall or swing back into place and while some prefer to use two hands it is easy and even fun to deploy and retract the Manix with one hand. When it comes to cutting there are many variables and the most important is the geometry of the blade. The broad flat grind of the Manix and the classic shape of the cutting edge make it easy to use for piercing and cutting action that slices instead of chopping. Superior materials mean that under use almost any of the Manix blade variants will hold an edge far longer than the Victorinox. So whether simply carrying the knife around just in case it is needed, deploying it for use, or actually cutting things the Manix is going to deliver easer and more reliable performance. It may be just a knife, but if you often use a knife then the convenience can quickly pile up to being less than a dollar--even pennies per actual use with each. And every time you can have the satisfaction of doing what needs to be done with minimal inconvenience. And it is also just plain fun: A fidgety machine that looks cool and works well can inspire confidence in the modern world the way so many other widgets can turn promise into a drag.
  - jaclaz 6y ago
    If we are talking multitools, a Leatherman would do nicely and it has blade lock (beside a S30V blade, possibly depending on models). Depending on the country (and possibly in the US depending on states) a folding knife that can be opened with a flick of the hand/wrist may be considered illegal (switchblade or more accurately "gravity knife"). See: https://www.akti.org/news/california-appellate-upholds-653k/ https://www.akti.org/news/california-appellate-upholds-653k/ In some places there are also contrasting theories on the legality of the "lock open", i.e. a Victorinox multitool or an old Leatherman without lock would "pass" but a (say) Leatherman Charge/Wave/Surge would be border line[1] or just over the border[2]. [1] if considered "multitool" [2] if considered "knife"
- evilduck 6y ago
  m0llusk gave a great answer, but to add to it, they aren't the same types of knives either. You can buy a Victorinox Swiss Army knife (SAK) in exactly one blade steel and it's a stainless steel that's extremely soft, relatively speaking. That's actually a good thing for most casual users since it's fast and easy to sharpen, resilient to abuse, and being stainless, easy to maintain. However, it will not stand up to a lot of normal usage before the edge dulls and it just doesn't perform well anymore. By contrast, the Manix's base model uses S30V and you'll probably get three or four times as much use from it before it dulls. Spyderco is also a "knife enthusiast's knife company" and they make a lot of their knives available in other varieties of steel too. One variant is Maxamet (a tool steel uses to cut other metals) and you'd easily have an edge on that variant last probably 10 times longer than a Swiss Army knife, but at the cost of having a more brittle edge that is much more difficult to sharpen and it's not a truly stainless steel either, so you have to be mindful of rust and exposure. If you're in a job position where you use it a lot, like in a warehouse where you cut pallet straps and break down boxes constantly, the steel variant choice can easily be the difference between needing to touch up the edge every single day vs. once a week. Spyderco also makes an entire lineup of knives that can withstand saltwater exposure without needing constant maintenance, something that would render a Swiss Army knife useless quickly. Those attributes mean the cost difference can be just about anything if the real world choice is between "useless hunk of rust" and "usable". There are also economies of scale. Victorinox sells a lot more SAKs than Spyderco sells Manixes, they stamp out their blades by the thousands, if not millions. Spyderco probably doesn't make more than 100k Manix knives a year. A single Manix also has about as much steel in it as 2 or 3 SAKs (the blade is two or three times thicker at the spine), the handle material is nicer and more expensive, the construction is maintainable, the lock is stronger and more intricate. Also there's a machining cost difference, you don't stamp out thick blade blanks of high end steels, you have to cut them out of a billet. Grinder belts are a consumable that are used to sharpen a knife and they last a lot longer for soft steels vs. hard steels. That cost as well as the additional time an employee spends on it goes into the knife's cost. Spyderco's Manix is made in Golden Colorado, which also has a high cost of living and afaik they compensate their employees with a livable wage (I've been to their factory outlet several years in a row and keep seeing the same faces). All that said, knives can also be pocket jewelry and there's a whole world of stupidly expensive knives out there that enthusiasts push up the prices of, just like there's stupidly expensive cars, watches, keyboards, shaving razors, dress shoes, sneakers, streetwear, raw denim, etc, etc. You can easily reframe your question as to why a pair of Japanese raw denim jeans costs way more than twice as much as a pair of Wranglers at WalMart, given that they're just pants. Or why a Lamborgini costs more than a Civic, given that they're just cars, or why a Keycult keyboard resales second hand for $4k when you can buy a Dell OEM keyboard for $15.
- _jal 6y ago
  Varying opinions already; here's one more. I see it as a category thing; a multitool has a knife, but is not a pocket knife. It is fine for cutting things in a pinch, but is terrible for much use - the ergonomics are all wrong, it is heavy and awkwardly shaped, and usually the blade shape is going to be very generic. As far as cost, it is like anything else - you pay for quality. Others have covered this, I don't have anything to add, other than a rule of thumb - if you've never sharpened a knife, you will probably not find much value in nice ones. As far as value, that's up to you. I use a knife daily, some days more than anything else I carry with me. If you don't need one, then it will be worth far less to you.
- gknoy 6y ago
  After having a pocket knife close on my finger as a kid (when I did something stupid;)), I will never again use a pocketknife without a locking mechanism. A knife is a personal tool; Often what you're paying for is not just the blade quality, but also the ergonomics. For example, my dad has one that he really likes, but I dislike the blade shape, and there's another one I have that is just horribly shaped and feels terrible in the hand.
balls187 6y ago
Benchmade fanboy here. I went down a rabbit hole about EDC in WA state. There is a grey area that carrying a pocket knife requires a concealed weapons permit. Most folding knives have a pocket clip, but as far as I have found, it's unclear if that in an of itself would qualify as not concealing the weapon. https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/washington/ https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/washington/
- leeoniya 6y ago
  my current EDC is a Benchmade 940-1 (S90V) - love it. used to EDC a Spyderco Centofante 4 (VG-10), but the flat blade profile is not a great all-arounder.
  - balls187 6y ago
    Great knife, I actually have the Goldclass Damascas 940. Obviously not as an EDC.
- nordsieck 6y ago
  > I went down a rabbit hole about EDC in WA state. There is a grey area that carrying a pocket knife requires a concealed weapons permit. From what I can tell, the article you linked talked mostly about the illegality of concealed carrying a fixed blade knife. From what I can tell, it's perfectly legal to carry a folder as long as it doesn't possess any "bad" features[2] and is within the length restriction. The law in Seattle is pretty clear. > "Dangerous knife" means any fixed-blade knife and any other knife having a blade more than 3 1/2 inches in length[1]. ___ 1. https://library.municode.com/wa/seattle/codes/municipal_code?nodeId=TIT12ACRCO_SUBTITLE_ICRCO_CH12A.14WECO_12A.14.010DE https://library.municode.com/wa/seattle/codes/municipal_code... 2. My understanding is that a lot of otherwise normal "folding knives" fall under the "gravity knife" definition because the detent that holds the blade closes is often pretty weak (on purpose - it makes opening the knives one handed easier).
- khm 6y ago
  There is no 'concealed weapons permit' in Washington state. The only available permit is pistol-specific.
jakeogh 6y ago
There's a review in here somewhere... https://www.youtube.com/user/mhanlen1 https://www.youtube.com/user/mhanlen1
mr_overalls 6y ago
Alternatively, consider supporting an artisan by buying a traditionally-forged blade. https://www.etsy.com/shop/BrightForestForge https://www.etsy.com/shop/BrightForestForge
- stronglikedan 6y ago
  I dunno, I think I'd rather have the QC of a big player for an EDC. Those artisan blades are nice showpieces though.
pjc50 6y ago
I may regret this, but if I want a zero maintenance kitchen knife, what should I get? (No "EDC" in the UK, of course)
- abawany 6y ago
  I am no knife nerd and it is heresy to bring it up in this thread but I am a big believer in ceramic knives. They cut clean, maintain an edge with no fuss, and just work. I recommend ones from Kyocera (made in Japan) since those have worked well for me. Also somewhat related, my peppermill is a Kyocera ceramic as well - works awesome compared to some of the others I've tried.
  - dangerscouse 6y ago
    Snap, got 3 Kyocera. Had them for years, never had them sharpened (though I'm told I can post them to do this) but hands down the best knives I've ever owned.
  - evilduck 6y ago
    Ceramics are neat but they chip easily are aren't readily sharpened or repaired at home (or even by most professional sharpeners). I think most people would be better off with a $40 Victorinox Fibrox.
    - abawany 6y ago
      I will concede that cheaper ceramic knives may chip easily but I have been using my set for about 6 years without any issues. The very first cheap ceramic knife I got chipped because I inadvertently dropped it from counter height on a tile floor. My stainless steel knives now just sit idle in drawers and I don't miss them one bit - haven't used one in years.
- balls187 6y ago
  All kitchen knives worth anything require maintenance. Really good knives (i.e. usually made with good steel) will hold an edge, and require less sharpening before each use. Instead you can just hit them weekly or so with a sharpening ceramic. Cheaper knives need constant sharpening, and or don't hold an edge for anything, and require you to do all the work. Regardless, always wash and dry your knives by hand, and always cut on a cutting board. Me personally, I love Shun knives. Not cheap, but the time and effort saved when cooking make it worth the investment. My first shun is over 10 years old, and I have never sharpened it with a stone, just a sharpening ceramic.
ftio 6y ago
Genuine question, coming from the perspective of a city-dwelling office worker. I get the value of having a knife like this in the house (to open and break down cardboard boxes, etc). Why do you need to carry one around? Can you tell me about the last time you used it outside the house? I'm definitely over-indexing on my own experience here. Would love to have my mind opened to how carrying a knife regularly might improve my day. :)
- jeffbee 6y ago
  I carry a benchmade knife everywhere. Why? Because all hell breaks loose if you have three kids and only one nectarine. Not that you need a fancy-ass knife for such work. Other field-knife activities include “what does the inside of this seed look like?” and “I got a splinter!” The only issue is even though the state of California permits them, the university of California forbids carrying knives, and there is one of those right in the middle of my city.
  - vvanders 6y ago
    Yup, +100 on Benchmade. Their locking mechanism is the best I've ever used(strong, can be used single handed with gloves on, and doesn't put your fingers in the path of the blade). We've got a small farm and put their blades through a workout, really a fan of the 535 as a non-flashy, lightweight EDC knife. Toured their factory pre-covid and it was pretty darn cool.
  - User23 6y ago
    Last I knew, in California you can legally walk around with a sword, so long it’s in a sheath hanging from your waist and not concealed.
    - jeffbee 6y ago
      I believe that's true. You can openly carry anything. The University system claims to forbid any folding knife with a blade that locks open (i.e. most any pocketknife) and any blade longer than 2.5 inches, carried openly or concealed.
bitexploder 6y ago
My office is right next to Spyderco’s. Didn’t know they had so much respect in the knife world.
arwineap 6y ago
Manix is a little long for some jurisdictions; sage 5 comes in at 3" so it is allowed almost everywhere

parsimo2010 6y ago

Wow, the author went pretty deep on this. I was expecting something like, “Bohler wins because M390 is best hurr dee hurr.” That’s the typical fare on knife forums at least (but substitute whichever super steel is your current favorite). But this piece really earns the “knife steel nerd” name and has a pretty solid history and covers a lot of technological developments over the years.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

bullen 6y ago

Japanese carbon-steel (should be called carbon-iron really because they rust) knives are way superior to anything these clowns made!

jimnotgym 6y ago
Superior in what way? I can imagine there are environments where the stainless properties of some of the steels in the article offset the properties of any mega sharp rusty iron knife. Japanese swords are amazing objects, but can chip when hit by another sword and are effectively ruined. European swords were renowned for their comparative toughness, however.
- dmoy 6y ago
  Corollary: there's a lot higher parrying frequency in modern FIE-style fencing compared to modern kendo, which partially carries over because of the historically more brittle steel used in Japan.
dang 6y ago
"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

morelisp 6y ago

The greatest knife steel metallurgist of all time would surely be the one that doesn't even bother with steel or metallurgy anymore. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg3qsVzHeUt5_cPpcRtoaJQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg3qsVzHeUt5_cPpcRtoaJQ

RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago

Question for the steel and knife enthusiasts. With modern metallurgy and machining techniques, could you design a sword that if transported back in time, would be looked at as a magical weapon (perhaps due to its strength, weight, cutting ability, etc?). What would you design?

abakker 6y ago
This isn't a complete answer, but, modern powder metallurgy along with exacting thermal control can make some blades that would probably take impact MUCH better than medieval ones. You could achieve more hardness and toughness with modern steels.
hchz 6y ago
Since the art of swordfighting is lost, you'd possibly engineer an incredible "long knife" that a professional swordsman would regard as unsuitable for combat or of mediocre value.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  We have enough old swords from when swordfighting was important that we should have some idea of what traits were valued.
  - hchz 6y ago
    It's not about making a pretty similar copy in terms of weight and balance. OP is asking about a weapon so superior it was viewed as magical. Let's think about this in terms of the standard engineering design-V: if you have nobody available for validating the design, how could you produce a product that you know to be so technologically superior that it appears to be "magic"?

mcguire 6y ago

The unknown dude sometime around 2000-1500 BCE who discovered you could get iron from ore?

stx 6y ago
This guy made it economical. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Gilchrist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Gilchrist
- jjoonathan 6y ago
  I'd call https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer_process the major advance and Gilchrest-Thomas a refinement. Shrug.
dragontamer 6y ago
It should be noted that iron was still around before iron-ore mining. But metallurgists back then had to wait for meteorites to fall from the sky and craft those (King Tut's meteorite-iron sword). But yes, the leap from copper/bronze (which could be discovered by simply dropping rocks into a fire, since copper melts at low enough temperatures) vs iron, which is a process that requires much hotter temperatures + forging techniques, is huge. Learning to mix metals into alloys would eventually lead to the discovery of steel (mix iron + wood). Not as good as modern steel, but trial-and-error would get a process down over the centuries for sure. The "Iron Forge" seems to be the hardest step in the whole tech tree. Its a huge leap, no matter how I think about it. Maybe some old pre-history metallurgist was lucky enough to play with meteorite-iron and noticed similarities to ore somewhere else.
- Sharlin 6y ago
  Bronze was revolutionary in other ways. Sure, copper occurs in native metallic form, but even once you find out that mixing it with certain minerals yields a much better metal, you have other problems. Namely that the mineral that gives the best alloy, cassiterite, or SiO2, only occurs in large quantities thousands of kilometers away from your copper deposits. Trade between regions that had hitherto had little contact became a thing. Iron, as known to the ancients, was in many ways inferior to bronze. Iron with low carbon content is malleable but soft, whereas iron with too much carbon is hard but brittle. It took a long time for people to painstakingly learn to make iron that was consistently as good as bronze, and even longer to learn how to further refine iron into consistent-quality steel, a process that also required huge amounts of energy compared to bronzemaking.

nickbauman 6y ago

What about the unsung blacksmith of Japan who basically created a variant of Damascus Steel to make the swords for Samurai starting around 1100 AD?

hinkley 6y ago
The lost art of sword forging. I still find it hilarious that 'Damascus steel' was a snow-job by the merchants to keep people from cutting out the middle man, by naming it after a place half a continent away from where it was being sourced. You may be buying it from Damascus but that crucible steel was coming from Hyderabad.
- thdrdt 6y ago
  What a lot of people also don't know is that forging doesn't give the steel it's strength. Forging is done because it is way easier/cheaper than melting and casting it. Quenching and tempering gives it it's desired strength.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    Was. These days the labor involved in hand-forging a part dominates and cast alloys are everything anyone uses for anything, outside of oddball boutique communities like fancy knife aficionados.
  - hinkley 6y ago
    My understanding was that forging is work hardening (but hard and strong are not the same thing), annealing cancels it out, which is why quenching and tempering are important. Also the story of the structure of the metal is a bit different when you've folded it 100's of times. No blacksmith or foundry is getting that sort of fine work in their material.
    - catalogia 6y ago
      Forging squeezes the slag out, thereby purifying the steel. As far as I am aware this was the primary mechanism by which folding steel (which was done about a dozen times, not hundreds; those larger numbers come from 2^[n folds]) strengthened Japanese blades.

stx 6y ago

I would not call him a metallurgist but this guy has tested a bunch of steels using an unscientific rope cut test and documented them in a spreadsheet. He was the first one that convinced me to spend over $100 for a cpm-s30v knife and it was way better then anything I had before in edge retention. His data cant be that bad though because I built a model to predict the number of cuts for a blade using edge angle and metal compounds (no real way to take into account heat treat though). It was relatively accurate for the less exotic steels. I should really share that with the world. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b_rNfdJnL9oyn-JoL9yUHhUmDLAP1hJ1dN_0q5G4tug/edit#gid=1607644856 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b_rNfdJnL9oyn-JoL9yU... He also records videos of himself and posts them to his youtube channel along with other knife reviews. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdICfnpxD9uzHLaSr3DN55g https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdICfnpxD9uzHLaSr3DN55g

Gertig 6y ago
As someone who has made their own knife from scratch(ish) this channel is gold!
- ethbro 6y ago
  For anyone who hasn't, would highly recommend. Railroad spikes are cheap and easy to hammer. Not great steel, but great for practicing metalwork.
Daniel_sk 6y ago
Wow, nice. I have only one pocket knife and that’s the lightweight blue Benchmade 535 Bugout and I just found out it’s made of the cpm-s30v steel, nice :).

adictator 6y ago

If one is talking about steel/iron metallurgists of all time, you cannot ignore Indian metallurgists. Some iron implements built in ancient India match or even surpass the quality of similar implementations of current time.

Havoc 6y ago

I was expecting more exotic names frankly. That's my ignorance speaking perhaps, but to me top metallurgist would be Damascus steel and maybe Japanese swords?

tudorw 6y ago
https://blog.knife-depot.com/link-between-samurai-swords-and-japanese-nuclear-plants/ https://blog.knife-depot.com/link-between-samurai-swords-and...

cycrutchfield 6y ago

I'm not an EDC knife kind of guy, but I have spent a lot of time and money on kitchen knives. SG-2 (aka R2) is pretty much the best that I have tried in terms of edge retention, ease of sharpening, and convenience (i.e. rust-resistant).

ChuckMcM 6y ago

Great article. A long time ago I started collecting exemplars of edged weapons (swords, knives, axes) for no reason other than I found the aesthetic interesting. But in collecting these things you may find, as I did, that just looking at them gets to be boring so you start reading about them. When was this kind of sword invented? Who used it? For what? What replaced it? What came before it? Etc. Before too long you may find that you are looking at two parallel universes that are interlocked by expressions of intent. In one universe are people figuring out what makes metal have the properties it does and how can I change them? And the other universe is people looking at what metal can do "now" and applying it to their creative process in weaponry. It is an amazing tapestry of complexity behind the simple appreciation of "that's a cool sword/knife"

ethbro 6y ago
Naval construction history has odd connections too, as one might imagine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_armour https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_armour

JohnL4 6y ago

Why is this even a topic on HN, with 77 (+ mine) comments?

dang 6y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

causality0 6y ago

Several years ago there used to be a site called KnifeTests where a heavyset man dressed like a serial killer put a variety of cheap and very expensive knives through horrific levels of abuse. Using the tip to dig through a 2x4, hammering it through a steel pipe, putting in a vice and standing on it, bending the blade back and forth, slicing a variety of materials including concrete. The one thing that really stood out was INFI steel. That stuff may as well be magic. It's honestly hard to even get anything made with it these days but if I had to trust my survival to one metal INFI would be it.

lioeters 6y ago
> INFI is a proprietary steel and heat-treat protocol developed by Busse Combat Knife Co. https://www.bussecombat.com/about-our-steel-infi/ https://www.bussecombat.com/about-our-steel-infi/
- causality0 6y ago
  Good to see they're back to normal operations. Last time I looked them up a few years ago they didn't actually have any knives for sale.

lioeters 6y ago

Not steel, but I was impressed to learn about the physics of obsidian knives produced during the Mayan civilization: > When skillfully worked, the edges of prismatic blade made from obsidian can reach the molecular level, i.e., the material has a cutting edge that is only one molecule thick. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian_use_in_Mesoamerica#cite_note-5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian_use_in_Mesoamerica#ci...

ethbro 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_knife#Modern_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_knife#Modern_use
- lioeters 6y ago
  Fascinating! > [Glass knives] were once the blade of choice for the ultra-thin sectioning required in transmission electron microscopy because they can be manufactured by hand. > ..Some labs still use glass knives because they are significantly less expensive than diamond knives. A common practice is to use a glass knife to cut the block which contains the sample to near the location of the specimen to be examined. > Then the glass knife is replaced by a diamond blade for the actual ultrathin sectioning. This extends the life of the diamond blade which is used only when its superior performance is critical. > Obsidian, a naturally occurring volcanic glass, can also be used to make sharp glass knives; obsidian surgical scalpels are available commercially.
  - ethbro 6y ago
    I have family in pathology. Labs do a lot of sample sectioning before microscopy. Thin enough to stain and visualize internal structures (think onion skin). PS: Never mention anything about this around TSA.

lacker 6y ago

I have never interacted with "knife nerds" before, but I sense their presence here. I want to get a good knife to take camping, anyone have a recommendation?

iratewizard 6y ago
Pocket knife sized? It's hard to beat the quality of a good leatherman. Larger? Ontario Mk3 is a great fixed blade option.
vvanders 6y ago
Camping knife? Unless you don't have a multitool a leatherman will be far more useful and is a usable knife in its own. Most EDC(Every Day Carry) knives are sufficient for most of what would come up camping. If you're going to carry anything bigger a hatchet is a lot more handy. That said if you're looking for something decent Benchmade, Spyderco and Buck all make solid knives. I'm partial to Benchmade mostly because their locking mechanism works with a single hand in a way that doesn't put your fingers in the path of the blade and can be used with gloves. 535, 970 and Griptilian are all fantastic knives that will take a beating and are easy to carry. I have a 535 that I use on the farm and is more than strong enough for anything I throw at it. A knife that you have on you more often and easy to carry is better than a heavier or larger one. Some blade lengths are also illegal in certain cities so staying under 3" is a good idea. I usually carry a light pocket knife, flashlight and small-ish multitool which covers most of the bases.
- ulisesrmzroche 6y ago
  I'm also a big Benchmade fan. Great company. I used the Bugout forever until a couple months ago when I started using the Grizzly Ridge. Either way you can't go wrong.
- mrexroad 6y ago
  This. I’ve had a Benchmade 943 in my pocket every day for more than a decade, but still pack a multitool when camping. Had other knives prior, but kinda lost interest in anything new after getting the 943. Except when wearing a suit... still wouldn’t mind finding a blade a bit more suit-able.