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This does seem like a problem, but at the same time, this would appear to be the expected result from a well-written recommendation engine. That is, if a user w

This does seem like a problem, but at the same time, this would appear to be the expected result from a well-written recommendation engine. That is, if a user watches a bunch of videos about a specific topic, it makes sense that it would recommend more of that same topic, since that is clearly what that user is interested in. That said, I see how this is a problem, but what is the solution? Do away with recommendations altogether?

throwayws 6y ago
See TikTok [1] as an example. The idea is to mix in different content. Making the goal not to match perfectly but to match different topics. - [1]: https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/how-tiktok-recommends-videos-for-you https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/how-tiktok-recommends-vide...
- Avamander 6y ago
  TikTok is a bad example. Claiming it's promoting "diverse content" is somehow rather funny. * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/dec/03/tiktok-owns-up-to-censoring-some-users-videos-to-stop-bullying https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/dec/03/tiktok-ow... * https://www.altpress.com/news/tiktok-censorship-black-lives-matter-george-floyd-hashtags-error/ https://www.altpress.com/news/tiktok-censorship-black-lives-... * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/26/tiktoks-local-moderation-guidelines-ban-pro-lgbt-content https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/26/tiktoks-l...
  - bigpumpkin 6y ago
    TikTok may only allow 90% of videos, but its algorithm is biased toward exploration of random subjects. Youtube may allow 99.9%, but its algorithm is biased toward what the user has recently watched.
    - Avamander 6y ago
      I find diversity of opportunity more important than diversity of outcome and think of the first as actual diversity.
  - throwayws 6y ago
    I mean topics different from the usual exact matches. I had only that word in mind. Sorry for the confusion, I fixed it. I didn't know about this though. Thanks for mentioning it.
jmsaucier 6y ago
One thing I've seen lately is that YouTube will recommend a video that I've already watched all of it. And they know I've watched it because I leave the watch history on and it has the red bar showing how far through the video i watch. I also don't know if it's because of other users behaviors or maybe channels pay for the exposure, but I've seen certain channels or topics take over the recommendation list more than other topics. Or there's the issue where the recommendation list beside a video is all "recommended for you" and not even related to the video. On mobile they had to add a button for showing videos actually related to the video you're watching, but it feels like sometimes even that's hit or miss. I'm okay with a recommendation engine when it doesnt get stuck in this loop of recommending the same videos over and over. For now, I just delete my YouTube history about once a month to get new recommended videos. Part of this may be youtubes fight to subvert people leaving keywords in the descriptions of videos so instead they're analyzing different things trying to build the heuristic. I know there's a lot that goes into the engine so it could be any number of things.
- Avamander 6y ago
  > And they know I've watched it because I leave the watch history on and it has the red bar showing how far through the video i watch. Worse is when they wipe that red bar. It's amnesiac, just like Google Search and Chrome, those too forget older things. I personally find it very annoying.
- cuddlybacon 6y ago
  > One thing I've seen lately is that YouTube will recommend a video that I've already watched all of it. And they know I've watched it because I leave the watch history on and it has the red bar showing how far through the video i watch. This may surprise you, but if I like a video I'll watch it a few dozen times. I say this might surprise you since it certainly surprises my friends who make this complaint. The accommodations the algorithms make for people like me is probably making it worse for people like you.
  - nullandvoid 6y ago
    Do you still get the same enjoyment out of a video 10 times on, serious question? I'm the kind of person that can never watch a film twice within the same year (normally longer), same with series
joedevon 6y ago
Platforms that create filter bubbles should show "opposite content"..perhaps with a heading that could have titles like "Videos we don't recommend"..."Videos you may disagree with".."break out of your filter bubble" or something to that effect.
- Avamander 6y ago
  Do you seriously think a lot of people would want to do that? I don't. I think conservatives will yell out loud that YouTube is promoting "gay propaganda/agenda" and vice versa from liberals. People intentionally bubble themselves, Twitter with it's much weaker suggestion algorithm has netted the same result, it really takes a special type of person to fight that.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    What is needed isn't the opposite view, it is the more moderate similar view. Liberals are evil isn't counter by liberal conspiracies. It is countered by conservatives who can see the point and a middle ground. Likewise liberal bubbles are popped by liberals who can understand conservative positions.
- kanox 6y ago
  Somehow I've managed to avoid most political/argumentative content on YouTube and this solution wouldn't make sense for me. Would I get videos about how bikes suck? What people who complain about "filter bubbles" mean is that they're sad that traditional media's hold over what people watch is weakening but that's a good thing. I don't need more people telling me that "orange man bad".
  - iforgotpassword 6y ago
    I wouldn't strictly limit the term filter bubble to politics here. Sometimes its just "whoa that stuff exists!" moments. Unless YouTube decides to let some video/channel go viral, you'll never get recommended stuff that isn't very similar to the last couple videos you watched. All the cool stuff that isn't related to IT stuff or retro computing I've found through comments on hn or elsewhere. Like that guy that restores matchbox cars, or the other one who builds dioramas.
marblessubtext 6y ago
Personally my problem is that it's not just the topic I'm interested in, it's also the presentation (therefore the channel), and sometimes I watch videos outside my usual channels because I have some specific interest. The recommendations then go ham for those one-off channels and other channels I've never heard of. I refuse to even watch the unheard of channels because I know there are videos on the channels I DO watch that I haven't watched yet and I want those recommended, 9/10 unknown channels I end up not liking and watching them makes even more noise. I don't watch anything politically sensitive but I can see how this system ends up in dangerous territory.
jlbnjmn 6y ago
Two different recommendation engines. One optimizes for depth, the other for breadth. Combined results in the feed for a well balanced diet of content.
- Emendo 6y ago
  To make it even better for customers, Youtube could break the different types of content from the recommendation engines, instead of blending everything together under one list in a way that resembles a slot machine.
grugagag 6y ago
> That is, if a user watches a bunch of videos about a specific topic, it makes sense that it would recommend more of that same topic, since that is clearly what that user is interested in. For how long though? In a short session it does make sense but having that trail you along for weeks to months is not only annoying but misguided as well, it diminishes the richness and the variety of the content and kills exploration. This should come with a reset button or simply be based on your last search or something like that. And there should be a way to block channels that you don't find interesting. There are some channels that I am not interested into their content that keep on showing on my recommednation list no matter what I am searching for. I want that to go away and without a plugin or some hacks that is not possible on youtube.

throwayws 6y ago

See TikTok [1] as an example. The idea is to mix in different content. Making the goal not to match perfectly but to match different topics. - [1]: https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/how-tiktok-recommends-videos-for-you https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/how-tiktok-recommends-vide...

Avamander 6y ago
TikTok is a bad example. Claiming it's promoting "diverse content" is somehow rather funny. * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/dec/03/tiktok-owns-up-to-censoring-some-users-videos-to-stop-bullying https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/dec/03/tiktok-ow... * https://www.altpress.com/news/tiktok-censorship-black-lives-matter-george-floyd-hashtags-error/ https://www.altpress.com/news/tiktok-censorship-black-lives-... * https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/26/tiktoks-local-moderation-guidelines-ban-pro-lgbt-content https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/sep/26/tiktoks-l...
- bigpumpkin 6y ago
  TikTok may only allow 90% of videos, but its algorithm is biased toward exploration of random subjects. Youtube may allow 99.9%, but its algorithm is biased toward what the user has recently watched.
  - Avamander 6y ago
    I find diversity of opportunity more important than diversity of outcome and think of the first as actual diversity.
- throwayws 6y ago
  I mean topics different from the usual exact matches. I had only that word in mind. Sorry for the confusion, I fixed it. I didn't know about this though. Thanks for mentioning it.

jmsaucier 6y ago

One thing I've seen lately is that YouTube will recommend a video that I've already watched all of it. And they know I've watched it because I leave the watch history on and it has the red bar showing how far through the video i watch. I also don't know if it's because of other users behaviors or maybe channels pay for the exposure, but I've seen certain channels or topics take over the recommendation list more than other topics. Or there's the issue where the recommendation list beside a video is all "recommended for you" and not even related to the video. On mobile they had to add a button for showing videos actually related to the video you're watching, but it feels like sometimes even that's hit or miss. I'm okay with a recommendation engine when it doesnt get stuck in this loop of recommending the same videos over and over. For now, I just delete my YouTube history about once a month to get new recommended videos. Part of this may be youtubes fight to subvert people leaving keywords in the descriptions of videos so instead they're analyzing different things trying to build the heuristic. I know there's a lot that goes into the engine so it could be any number of things.

Avamander 6y ago
> And they know I've watched it because I leave the watch history on and it has the red bar showing how far through the video i watch. Worse is when they wipe that red bar. It's amnesiac, just like Google Search and Chrome, those too forget older things. I personally find it very annoying.
cuddlybacon 6y ago
> One thing I've seen lately is that YouTube will recommend a video that I've already watched all of it. And they know I've watched it because I leave the watch history on and it has the red bar showing how far through the video i watch. This may surprise you, but if I like a video I'll watch it a few dozen times. I say this might surprise you since it certainly surprises my friends who make this complaint. The accommodations the algorithms make for people like me is probably making it worse for people like you.
- nullandvoid 6y ago
  Do you still get the same enjoyment out of a video 10 times on, serious question? I'm the kind of person that can never watch a film twice within the same year (normally longer), same with series

joedevon 6y ago

Platforms that create filter bubbles should show "opposite content"..perhaps with a heading that could have titles like "Videos we don't recommend"..."Videos you may disagree with".."break out of your filter bubble" or something to that effect.

Avamander 6y ago
Do you seriously think a lot of people would want to do that? I don't. I think conservatives will yell out loud that YouTube is promoting "gay propaganda/agenda" and vice versa from liberals. People intentionally bubble themselves, Twitter with it's much weaker suggestion algorithm has netted the same result, it really takes a special type of person to fight that.
- bluGill 6y ago
  What is needed isn't the opposite view, it is the more moderate similar view. Liberals are evil isn't counter by liberal conspiracies. It is countered by conservatives who can see the point and a middle ground. Likewise liberal bubbles are popped by liberals who can understand conservative positions.
kanox 6y ago
Somehow I've managed to avoid most political/argumentative content on YouTube and this solution wouldn't make sense for me. Would I get videos about how bikes suck? What people who complain about "filter bubbles" mean is that they're sad that traditional media's hold over what people watch is weakening but that's a good thing. I don't need more people telling me that "orange man bad".
- iforgotpassword 6y ago
  I wouldn't strictly limit the term filter bubble to politics here. Sometimes its just "whoa that stuff exists!" moments. Unless YouTube decides to let some video/channel go viral, you'll never get recommended stuff that isn't very similar to the last couple videos you watched. All the cool stuff that isn't related to IT stuff or retro computing I've found through comments on hn or elsewhere. Like that guy that restores matchbox cars, or the other one who builds dioramas.

marblessubtext 6y ago

Personally my problem is that it's not just the topic I'm interested in, it's also the presentation (therefore the channel), and sometimes I watch videos outside my usual channels because I have some specific interest. The recommendations then go ham for those one-off channels and other channels I've never heard of. I refuse to even watch the unheard of channels because I know there are videos on the channels I DO watch that I haven't watched yet and I want those recommended, 9/10 unknown channels I end up not liking and watching them makes even more noise. I don't watch anything politically sensitive but I can see how this system ends up in dangerous territory.

jlbnjmn 6y ago

Two different recommendation engines. One optimizes for depth, the other for breadth. Combined results in the feed for a well balanced diet of content.

Emendo 6y ago
To make it even better for customers, Youtube could break the different types of content from the recommendation engines, instead of blending everything together under one list in a way that resembles a slot machine.

grugagag 6y ago

> That is, if a user watches a bunch of videos about a specific topic, it makes sense that it would recommend more of that same topic, since that is clearly what that user is interested in. For how long though? In a short session it does make sense but having that trail you along for weeks to months is not only annoying but misguided as well, it diminishes the richness and the variety of the content and kills exploration. This should come with a reset button or simply be based on your last search or something like that. And there should be a way to block channels that you don't find interesting. There are some channels that I am not interested into their content that keep on showing on my recommednation list no matter what I am searching for. I want that to go away and without a plugin or some hacks that is not possible on youtube.