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I agree - the system gamifies conversation and literally rewards saying the popular thing with points. That's great for funny comments on memes, but it's not id

I agree - the system gamifies conversation and literally rewards saying the popular thing with points. That's great for funny comments on memes, but it's not ideal for politics. Obviously, we're doing it here right now, which brings me onto a second point - I have found that Hacker News is frequented by similar-minded people who will take my ideas in good faith, so I take time to post here. But I no longer bother with other platforms that would downvote me for saying the same thing. And so, we're becoming inexperienced with ideas we disagree with.

newen 6y ago
Hacker News has a very specific techno-libertarian Silicon Valley type outlook and you get downvoted pretty quickly when you express other types of views, especially in politics and controversial topics.
- _jal 6y ago
  If this is the sort of thing you like, you'll like it here. Choose your bubble.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Bjartr 6y ago
  I find that if such opinions are communicated civilly, they are much, much less likely to be downvoted. It's not like no one here will knee jerk downvote, but most often I see aggressive posts downvoted much more consistently than "merely" controversial ones
  - mellosouls 6y ago
    I agree that uncivil comments are down-voted more often, but there is clear "I don't agree with you even though you've made your point intelligently, so I will see if I can make it disappear" which is really unfortunate and not conducive to civil discourse. Perhaps less than other platforms but certainly a thing - often with no counter comment to explain. All seems a bit small-minded.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - bluGill 6y ago
    If you are civil you get less down votes, but some opinions will automatically get you a few down votes no matter how insightful and well worded.
  - skissane 6y ago
    Some people downvote because a silent downvote is risk-free, a response isn't. Especially on a controversial topic, why respond and run the risk of being downvoted by those who disagree with you when you can just downvote and move on?
- andrepd 6y ago
  Case in point, this very comment!
  - mellosouls 6y ago
    I can't help wondering if some of the down-voting in this case is intended as ironic.
    - Smithalicious 6y ago
      As the old adage goes, "it's still shitposting even if you're being ironic".
    - prepend 6y ago
      Perhaps my longest internet commenting rule is “downvote people complaining about downvotes”
      - mellosouls 6y ago
        Its sometimes a fair complaint (if against HN guidelines) in an environment like this where you hope for a little bit more thought in when to down-vote.
        prepend 6y ago
        Perhaps. But always off topic and almost always boring. When I think I’m unfairly downvoted, I just try to reply with more detail and accounting for more possible interpretations. Or I move on.
  - malandrew 6y ago
    I downvoted it because it's anecdotal and furthermore not accurate based on my own anecdotal experience. i.e. I'm using my downvote for my anecdotal experience to cancel their anecdotal experience. Likewise I expect downvotes on this comment for being anecdotal as well (except in the circumstance that some of the additional commentary below garners upvotes) I'm probably one of the people that would be categorized as a techno-libertarian (even though I don't live in SV), but I get downvotes all the time as well. This community is a lot more diverse than just the techno-libertarian crowd. There's no lack of people in opposition to the techno-libertarianism as well downvoting the techno-libertarian comments and upvoting those in opposition to the techno-libertarian comments. Basically I downvoted this comment for presenting the situation as one where only their views are getting downvoted excessively because they believe themselves to be in the minority when my experience clearly falsifies the assumption that it's only non-techno-libertarian comments being downvoted. Furthermore, HNers tend to downvote comments that speculate on why things are being downvoted. The truth is that you have absolutely zero knowledge into why a comment was downvoted unless someone replies to say they downvoted and explains exactly why they did so like I just did. Anything other than that is pure baseless speculation and that doesn't get you very far in a community that prefers statements based on evidence. Also, complaining about downvotes is known to get you downvoted because it's generally been observed to contribute negatively to the quality of discussion. You shouldn't complain about downvotes and instead you should add a comment where you argue your point better and try to gain karma with a new better comment than complaining about downvotes on a previous one that didn't succeed.
- iagovar 6y ago
  I'm a utilitarian social democrat and I don't think I ever been downvoted because of that, despite living in a world completely different from SV. I'm not american, I'm not rich, and some of the problems that SV like to focus at seem childish and/or absurd to me, but here I am, still thinking that HN is probably one of the best communities.
pjc50 6y ago
I'm very experienced with the opposing views .. and I find it increasingly difficult to assume that they're both held in good faith and also willing to take my views as held in good faith. There's a "iterated prisoner's dilemma" thing going on, where the side that plays "defect" all the time has got the upper hand.
- qqn 6y ago
  Yes to the "defect" thought. Learning about Karpman's triangle[0] helped me understand this. In conflict, people flit between three identities: the villain who tries to force their way, the hero who tries to save the situation, and the victim who accepts loss and points out their difficulties. And everyone's trying to be the victim because that's who ultimately gets their way, through manipulating the "don't kick someone when they're down" mentality. Fascinating stuff, and now that I've seen it I just can't unsee it almost everywhere. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
  - qqn 6y ago
    I should add that the tendency of adopting the hero role ("let bygones be bygones, but we need to get this done") isn't ideal since it leaves a power imbalance in its wake. A more effective response lies in Nonviolent Communication,[0] so saying, "When you say this I feel this because I value this. Would you be willing to do this?" This way emotions are managed and both parties begin exiting the dialogue understanding each other, and on equal footing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication
    - watwut 6y ago
      And then I tell you that I am not responsible for your feelings, you are. Which is very common thing to say these days. Or I say you that you are oversensitive and emotional. I agree that "hero" in original framing basically favors status quo.
      - 6y ago
mrfusion 6y ago
I really liked slashdots system. It seemed to work well too.

newen 6y ago

Hacker News has a very specific techno-libertarian Silicon Valley type outlook and you get downvoted pretty quickly when you express other types of views, especially in politics and controversial topics.

_jal 6y ago
If this is the sort of thing you like, you'll like it here. Choose your bubble.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Bjartr 6y ago
I find that if such opinions are communicated civilly, they are much, much less likely to be downvoted. It's not like no one here will knee jerk downvote, but most often I see aggressive posts downvoted much more consistently than "merely" controversial ones
- mellosouls 6y ago
  I agree that uncivil comments are down-voted more often, but there is clear "I don't agree with you even though you've made your point intelligently, so I will see if I can make it disappear" which is really unfortunate and not conducive to civil discourse. Perhaps less than other platforms but certainly a thing - often with no counter comment to explain. All seems a bit small-minded.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- bluGill 6y ago
  If you are civil you get less down votes, but some opinions will automatically get you a few down votes no matter how insightful and well worded.
- skissane 6y ago
  Some people downvote because a silent downvote is risk-free, a response isn't. Especially on a controversial topic, why respond and run the risk of being downvoted by those who disagree with you when you can just downvote and move on?
andrepd 6y ago
Case in point, this very comment!
- mellosouls 6y ago
  I can't help wondering if some of the down-voting in this case is intended as ironic.
  - Smithalicious 6y ago
    As the old adage goes, "it's still shitposting even if you're being ironic".
  - prepend 6y ago
    Perhaps my longest internet commenting rule is “downvote people complaining about downvotes”
    - mellosouls 6y ago
      Its sometimes a fair complaint (if against HN guidelines) in an environment like this where you hope for a little bit more thought in when to down-vote.
      - prepend 6y ago
        Perhaps. But always off topic and almost always boring. When I think I’m unfairly downvoted, I just try to reply with more detail and accounting for more possible interpretations. Or I move on.
- malandrew 6y ago
  I downvoted it because it's anecdotal and furthermore not accurate based on my own anecdotal experience. i.e. I'm using my downvote for my anecdotal experience to cancel their anecdotal experience. Likewise I expect downvotes on this comment for being anecdotal as well (except in the circumstance that some of the additional commentary below garners upvotes) I'm probably one of the people that would be categorized as a techno-libertarian (even though I don't live in SV), but I get downvotes all the time as well. This community is a lot more diverse than just the techno-libertarian crowd. There's no lack of people in opposition to the techno-libertarianism as well downvoting the techno-libertarian comments and upvoting those in opposition to the techno-libertarian comments. Basically I downvoted this comment for presenting the situation as one where only their views are getting downvoted excessively because they believe themselves to be in the minority when my experience clearly falsifies the assumption that it's only non-techno-libertarian comments being downvoted. Furthermore, HNers tend to downvote comments that speculate on why things are being downvoted. The truth is that you have absolutely zero knowledge into why a comment was downvoted unless someone replies to say they downvoted and explains exactly why they did so like I just did. Anything other than that is pure baseless speculation and that doesn't get you very far in a community that prefers statements based on evidence. Also, complaining about downvotes is known to get you downvoted because it's generally been observed to contribute negatively to the quality of discussion. You shouldn't complain about downvotes and instead you should add a comment where you argue your point better and try to gain karma with a new better comment than complaining about downvotes on a previous one that didn't succeed.
iagovar 6y ago
I'm a utilitarian social democrat and I don't think I ever been downvoted because of that, despite living in a world completely different from SV. I'm not american, I'm not rich, and some of the problems that SV like to focus at seem childish and/or absurd to me, but here I am, still thinking that HN is probably one of the best communities.

pjc50 6y ago

I'm very experienced with the opposing views .. and I find it increasingly difficult to assume that they're both held in good faith and also willing to take my views as held in good faith. There's a "iterated prisoner's dilemma" thing going on, where the side that plays "defect" all the time has got the upper hand.

qqn 6y ago
Yes to the "defect" thought. Learning about Karpman's triangle[0] helped me understand this. In conflict, people flit between three identities: the villain who tries to force their way, the hero who tries to save the situation, and the victim who accepts loss and points out their difficulties. And everyone's trying to be the victim because that's who ultimately gets their way, through manipulating the "don't kick someone when they're down" mentality. Fascinating stuff, and now that I've seen it I just can't unsee it almost everywhere. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
- qqn 6y ago
  I should add that the tendency of adopting the hero role ("let bygones be bygones, but we need to get this done") isn't ideal since it leaves a power imbalance in its wake. A more effective response lies in Nonviolent Communication,[0] so saying, "When you say this I feel this because I value this. Would you be willing to do this?" This way emotions are managed and both parties begin exiting the dialogue understanding each other, and on equal footing. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication
  - watwut 6y ago
    And then I tell you that I am not responsible for your feelings, you are. Which is very common thing to say these days. Or I say you that you are oversensitive and emotional. I agree that "hero" in original framing basically favors status quo.
    - 6y ago

mrfusion 6y ago

I really liked slashdots system. It seemed to work well too.