5 ms·

WHy do they not have a normal citizen identity like developed countries all over the world? It's not like they don't want or need it, but now they are taking an

WHy do they not have a normal citizen identity like developed countries all over the world? It's not like they don't want or need it, but now they are taking an unreliable and costly route which ultimately gets a similar (but substandard) result.

crooked-v 6y ago
Republicans have a long history of torpedoing attempts at low-cost or free national ID card programs, nominally for privacy reasons, but in practice because it would eliminate piecemeal state-level voter suppression based on ID availability.
- Aloha 6y ago
  I'm 37, and politically active, I'm generally slightly left of center too, I can't think of a single proposed program for a National ID, much less one scuttled by Republicans.
  - nipponese 6y ago
    Real ID Act of 2005
    - Aloha 6y ago
      This was both passed abs didn't create a National ID, not only that, passing it was a Bush administration priority.
- beervirus 6y ago
  That’s great that you can read their minds so easily.
mindslight 6y ago
There isn't enough political will to include restrictions against abuse by private actors (eg what happened to social security numbers and license plates), so a system that was more technically competent would result in increased commercial surveillance and control.
toast0 6y ago
The US constitution restricts acts of the federal government to enumerated powers. A lot of stuff gets justified under an expansive interpretation of regulating interstate commerce, but I'm not sure how a register of citizens qualifies. Certainly, you could find legal scholars who would tell you it's allowed and those who would tell you it's not. There's a fair amount of resistance to government information gathering, especially by the federal government. There's a bigger question of records quality. There are a lot of citizens who have no records of their birth --- either it wasn't recorded, or the records were lost, or the details you would need to find the records aren't available. Anyone contemplating reconciling all those edge cases is going to simply give up.
- wang_li 6y ago
  Citizenship and the rights and duties of citizens are all over the constitution. It would be quite the surprise to find out the Federal Government can't keep a list of who is a citizen. I mean we already have social security numbers for a small, universal pension. We have the selective service which gets half the people. We have passports for citizens and visas for non-citizens. We have the REAL ID Act. The country really needs a government that has the balls to enforce the laws as they are written or change them to what they want to enforce. The idea that the effective law is predicated upon the whims of prosecutorial discretion is bullshit.
- syshum 6y ago
  Ohh I am sure the can shoe horn it in under the Commerce Clause along with a little spice of Census
- jhayward 6y ago
  Article I, Section 2 of the constitution requires the government to conduct a decennial census, and empowers congress to make such law as it may direct to implement it. One could easily see a national identity system to be justified as part of the census. I'm sure there are other articles that could also be used to justify one. The reluctance around a national identifier and system is purely policy, not lack of constitutional authority.
js2 6y ago
Opposition to a national ID is one of the rare subjects on which the left and right tend to agree, but for different reasons. Here's the ACLU's thoughts on the matter: https://www.aclu.org/other/5-problems-national-id-cards https://www.aclu.org/other/5-problems-national-id-cards The NRA links to a few articles in opposition: https://www.nraila.org/articles/20020515/we-don-t-need-no-stinkin-national-id https://www.nraila.org/articles/20020515/we-don-t-need-no-st... https://www.nraila.org/articles/20041222/do-we-need-a-national-id-card https://www.nraila.org/articles/20041222/do-we-need-a-nation... https://www.nraila.org/articles/20020711/reviving-a-de-facto-national-id https://www.nraila.org/articles/20020711/reviving-a-de-facto... Here's an opinion piece Fox News ran in opposition: https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/5-reasons-why-america-should-steer-clear-of-a-national-id-card https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/5-reasons-why-america-should...
- aaomidi 6y ago
  Before I start, just so you know I'm very much on the left. We shouldn't be wanting a stronger central government. A national ID system is a stronger central government. The federal government's job is oversight. That should be the extent of their influence. So yeah thank you for sharing that link. ACLU has the right idea.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  which is actually quite hilarious because the Feds have everything already SSN, taxes, census, FICA, real id and on and on. I never understood the logic behind people doing that stuff quite willingly and then freaking out over a national ID, which we pretty already much have given there is a federal program to get your state ID hooked up into the federal system.
- jhanschoo 6y ago
  How does identification for federal services online work?
  - js2 6y ago
    Varies by service. I can't login to the social security website to get my statements, so, not very well in some cases. I locked myself out trying to prove my identity which basically amounts to providing information from your credit report. To unlock the account, I'll have to visit a social security office and they'll apparently give me a one-time code. I haven't cared enough to go through the pain of doing this yet.
aimor 6y ago
There's a lot of resistance to creating an explicit National ID card. There's also the Real ID act passed by Bush in 2005 (and whatever implementation and changes have been made in the 15 years since) that did create a national ID card (standards for driver's license and identification) that all states but Oregon and Oklahoma are compliant with. ACLU 5 reasons to not have national ID: https://www.aclu.org/other/5-problems-national-id-cards https://www.aclu.org/other/5-problems-national-id-cards Homeland Security Real ID: https://www.dhs.gov/real-id https://www.dhs.gov/real-id Short timeline of US National ID (opinionated): https://www.endtime.com/articles-endtime-magazine/why-america-has-always-refused-national-id/ https://www.endtime.com/articles-endtime-magazine/why-americ...
- syshum 6y ago
  I am one of the people that resist National ID, but at this point it would be better than the screwed up sysytem of using SSN and a hodgepodge and inaccurate Drivers Lic system for ID Neither of which was ever really suppose to be for ID SSN is for me to get my old age money, and Drivers Lic is for me to prove I can safely operate a car... Extending them from their original purpose has lead to all kinds of problems
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > but at this point it would be better than the screwed up sysytem of using SSN and a hodgepodge and inaccurate Drivers Lic system for ID > Neither of which was ever really suppose to be for ID State IDs (including Drivers Licenses, which are State IDs conjoined with permission to drive certain classes of vehicles on public roads) absolutely are intended as ID, and the function of drivers licenses as drivers licenses presupposes them functioning first as ID, since it can’t establish that you have permission to drive if it can't establish that you are the person it refers to.
    - syshum 6y ago
      The history of both has the ID functions of them added on after the fact. Granted the ID functions of the state Drivers licenses were done a little better than the ID functions of the SSN being used for Tax ID purposes then for other ID Purposes largely because the adding the ID functions to Drivers Licenses was done by the same entity issuing the drivers licenses unlike SSA which resisted efforts to have SSN be an ID number That said original drivers licensees simply had a Name and the fact you passed the test, there was zero ID component to them, this was added on later.
microcolonel 6y ago
The Several States have a degree of sovereignty that is incompatible with centralized national ID. One solution is to standardize the format, so that cooperation like this is more seamless without being imposed from on high; that's a strategy that has worked well for other things. Also here in Canada, we too have separate ID for each province and territory, and separate health insurance ID too. I think given the current political climate, where the far left is generally critical of the concept of citizenship altogether (see current proposals to allow non-citizen voting in federal elections, decriminalize illegal border crossings, etc.), the opposition of just that one political subculture would be enough to scuttle any attempt. Add on to that the concerns of lawful gun owners, ordinary people who do not want to be identified to the Federal government except for the purposes of taxes and social security, and the huge number of people who are basically okay with the status quo (myself included), and national ID looks like a non-starter.
toomanybeersies 6y ago
National ID is less common than you'd think in developed countries. The USA, UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand all lack national or citizen ID like what's common in Europe. Australia is quite similar to the USA in the practical application of this. As far as I'm aware, all the different IDs the government gives you (TFN for tax, medicare for healthcare, etc.) are theoretically optional. In practise, you'd get taxed at the maximum withholding rate (but refunded the excess at the end of the financial year), miss out on cheap healthcare and other benefits, and wouldn't be allowed to drive. You are required to register to vote though, and voting is compulsory, but the information they keep is fairly minimal. Generally the opposition is on the basis that the government should be trusted with as little information on its subjects as possible. Think of the worst thing that the government, or a third party that gains access, could do with the information they have on you, and then expect it to happen. Obviously its a spectrum, most people would be opposed to a national database of everyone's DNA, and most people would agree that a government needs some amount of information in order to function effectively. So most people have an opinion somewhere in the centre.
gumby 6y ago
Can you give some examples of how life is improved by having such a system? The current US system seems excessive already.

crooked-v 6y ago

Republicans have a long history of torpedoing attempts at low-cost or free national ID card programs, nominally for privacy reasons, but in practice because it would eliminate piecemeal state-level voter suppression based on ID availability.

Aloha 6y ago
I'm 37, and politically active, I'm generally slightly left of center too, I can't think of a single proposed program for a National ID, much less one scuttled by Republicans.
- nipponese 6y ago
  Real ID Act of 2005
  - Aloha 6y ago
    This was both passed abs didn't create a National ID, not only that, passing it was a Bush administration priority.
beervirus 6y ago
That’s great that you can read their minds so easily.

mindslight 6y ago

There isn't enough political will to include restrictions against abuse by private actors (eg what happened to social security numbers and license plates), so a system that was more technically competent would result in increased commercial surveillance and control.

toast0 6y ago

The US constitution restricts acts of the federal government to enumerated powers. A lot of stuff gets justified under an expansive interpretation of regulating interstate commerce, but I'm not sure how a register of citizens qualifies. Certainly, you could find legal scholars who would tell you it's allowed and those who would tell you it's not. There's a fair amount of resistance to government information gathering, especially by the federal government. There's a bigger question of records quality. There are a lot of citizens who have no records of their birth --- either it wasn't recorded, or the records were lost, or the details you would need to find the records aren't available. Anyone contemplating reconciling all those edge cases is going to simply give up.

wang_li 6y ago
Citizenship and the rights and duties of citizens are all over the constitution. It would be quite the surprise to find out the Federal Government can't keep a list of who is a citizen. I mean we already have social security numbers for a small, universal pension. We have the selective service which gets half the people. We have passports for citizens and visas for non-citizens. We have the REAL ID Act. The country really needs a government that has the balls to enforce the laws as they are written or change them to what they want to enforce. The idea that the effective law is predicated upon the whims of prosecutorial discretion is bullshit.
syshum 6y ago
Ohh I am sure the can shoe horn it in under the Commerce Clause along with a little spice of Census
jhayward 6y ago
Article I, Section 2 of the constitution requires the government to conduct a decennial census, and empowers congress to make such law as it may direct to implement it. One could easily see a national identity system to be justified as part of the census. I'm sure there are other articles that could also be used to justify one. The reluctance around a national identifier and system is purely policy, not lack of constitutional authority.

js2 6y ago

Opposition to a national ID is one of the rare subjects on which the left and right tend to agree, but for different reasons. Here's the ACLU's thoughts on the matter: https://www.aclu.org/other/5-problems-national-id-cards https://www.aclu.org/other/5-problems-national-id-cards The NRA links to a few articles in opposition: https://www.nraila.org/articles/20020515/we-don-t-need-no-stinkin-national-id https://www.nraila.org/articles/20020515/we-don-t-need-no-st... https://www.nraila.org/articles/20041222/do-we-need-a-national-id-card https://www.nraila.org/articles/20041222/do-we-need-a-nation... https://www.nraila.org/articles/20020711/reviving-a-de-facto-national-id https://www.nraila.org/articles/20020711/reviving-a-de-facto... Here's an opinion piece Fox News ran in opposition: https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/5-reasons-why-america-should-steer-clear-of-a-national-id-card https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/5-reasons-why-america-should...

aaomidi 6y ago
Before I start, just so you know I'm very much on the left. We shouldn't be wanting a stronger central government. A national ID system is a stronger central government. The federal government's job is oversight. That should be the extent of their influence. So yeah thank you for sharing that link. ACLU has the right idea.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
which is actually quite hilarious because the Feds have everything already SSN, taxes, census, FICA, real id and on and on. I never understood the logic behind people doing that stuff quite willingly and then freaking out over a national ID, which we pretty already much have given there is a federal program to get your state ID hooked up into the federal system.
jhanschoo 6y ago
How does identification for federal services online work?
- js2 6y ago
  Varies by service. I can't login to the social security website to get my statements, so, not very well in some cases. I locked myself out trying to prove my identity which basically amounts to providing information from your credit report. To unlock the account, I'll have to visit a social security office and they'll apparently give me a one-time code. I haven't cared enough to go through the pain of doing this yet.

aimor 6y ago

There's a lot of resistance to creating an explicit National ID card. There's also the Real ID act passed by Bush in 2005 (and whatever implementation and changes have been made in the 15 years since) that did create a national ID card (standards for driver's license and identification) that all states but Oregon and Oklahoma are compliant with. ACLU 5 reasons to not have national ID: https://www.aclu.org/other/5-problems-national-id-cards https://www.aclu.org/other/5-problems-national-id-cards Homeland Security Real ID: https://www.dhs.gov/real-id https://www.dhs.gov/real-id Short timeline of US National ID (opinionated): https://www.endtime.com/articles-endtime-magazine/why-america-has-always-refused-national-id/ https://www.endtime.com/articles-endtime-magazine/why-americ...

syshum 6y ago
I am one of the people that resist National ID, but at this point it would be better than the screwed up sysytem of using SSN and a hodgepodge and inaccurate Drivers Lic system for ID Neither of which was ever really suppose to be for ID SSN is for me to get my old age money, and Drivers Lic is for me to prove I can safely operate a car... Extending them from their original purpose has lead to all kinds of problems
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > but at this point it would be better than the screwed up sysytem of using SSN and a hodgepodge and inaccurate Drivers Lic system for ID > Neither of which was ever really suppose to be for ID State IDs (including Drivers Licenses, which are State IDs conjoined with permission to drive certain classes of vehicles on public roads) absolutely are intended as ID, and the function of drivers licenses as drivers licenses presupposes them functioning first as ID, since it can’t establish that you have permission to drive if it can't establish that you are the person it refers to.
  - syshum 6y ago
    The history of both has the ID functions of them added on after the fact. Granted the ID functions of the state Drivers licenses were done a little better than the ID functions of the SSN being used for Tax ID purposes then for other ID Purposes largely because the adding the ID functions to Drivers Licenses was done by the same entity issuing the drivers licenses unlike SSA which resisted efforts to have SSN be an ID number That said original drivers licensees simply had a Name and the fact you passed the test, there was zero ID component to them, this was added on later.

microcolonel 6y ago

The Several States have a degree of sovereignty that is incompatible with centralized national ID. One solution is to standardize the format, so that cooperation like this is more seamless without being imposed from on high; that's a strategy that has worked well for other things. Also here in Canada, we too have separate ID for each province and territory, and separate health insurance ID too. I think given the current political climate, where the far left is generally critical of the concept of citizenship altogether (see current proposals to allow non-citizen voting in federal elections, decriminalize illegal border crossings, etc.), the opposition of just that one political subculture would be enough to scuttle any attempt. Add on to that the concerns of lawful gun owners, ordinary people who do not want to be identified to the Federal government except for the purposes of taxes and social security, and the huge number of people who are basically okay with the status quo (myself included), and national ID looks like a non-starter.

toomanybeersies 6y ago

National ID is less common than you'd think in developed countries. The USA, UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand all lack national or citizen ID like what's common in Europe. Australia is quite similar to the USA in the practical application of this. As far as I'm aware, all the different IDs the government gives you (TFN for tax, medicare for healthcare, etc.) are theoretically optional. In practise, you'd get taxed at the maximum withholding rate (but refunded the excess at the end of the financial year), miss out on cheap healthcare and other benefits, and wouldn't be allowed to drive. You are required to register to vote though, and voting is compulsory, but the information they keep is fairly minimal. Generally the opposition is on the basis that the government should be trusted with as little information on its subjects as possible. Think of the worst thing that the government, or a third party that gains access, could do with the information they have on you, and then expect it to happen. Obviously its a spectrum, most people would be opposed to a national database of everyone's DNA, and most people would agree that a government needs some amount of information in order to function effectively. So most people have an opinion somewhere in the centre.

gumby 6y ago

Can you give some examples of how life is improved by having such a system? The current US system seems excessive already.