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If anybody here ever finds themselves in the same dilemma, use Morphtoken over TOR to swap to XMR, a completely different blockchain. This makes all the chain

If anybody here ever finds themselves in the same dilemma, use Morphtoken over TOR to swap to XMR, a completely different blockchain. This makes all the chain analysis companies and the armchair blockchain sleuths simply follow transactions on the bitcoin blockchain forever, thinking they are doing something productive with their lives, while you have hopped over to another chain that they can't track assuming they even noticed that you swapped. That was a viable last decade solution and is unfortunately centralized, this decade in 2020 you can also use the decentralized renBTC to permissionlessly lock up and mint your bitcoin as an erc20 token on the Ethereum blockchain. So now you are really liquid and have access to the entire decentralized finance economy. But again, if you really want to get government bucks and an unlinked trail, you need to sell the renBTC token for Ether and move that Ether into either Tornado.cash for a little while, or go back to the centralized solution like Morphtoken and swap the Ether for XMR as XMR has an inherently stronger anonymity set than anything else. Peace.

dnadler 6y ago
Just to be clear, this is a step by step process for how to launder money, right?
- vmception 6y ago
  No, as it doesn't detail necessary reintegration into the economy. You will need to offer a service for crypto which you report taxes on. Your "customers" either pay directly in XMR which there is no trail on, or they swap the XMR back for a more likely used cryptocurrency like bitcoin or Ether, and pay you with that. So now it is. In any case as your lawyer might tell you: if the origin is illicit it is money laundering. If the origin is not illicit then its not money laundering. The irony being that it is the onus of the accuser to determine the origin, and if you do it right that is not possible to know in any scenario. Typically money laundering then is a tacked on charge, after other clear evidence is already known, to help ensure a conviction. But really at this point, its probably better if your public resources weren't spent on flagging transactions in the first place, and if the private sector was not burdened with doing this work for the state.
  - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
    > If the origin is not illicit then its not money laundering It is if done for purposes of e.g. avoiding taxes or purchasing illicit goods. That said, obfuscation per se is not illegal in most jurisdictions.
    - vmception 6y ago
      so like an illicit origin? :) yes, people need to be aware of the universe of illicit origins. When I was working for the US government most of the people indicted under these laws (structuring, avoiding reporting thresholds, and then obfuscation so money laundering) were not terrorists or drug dealers. They were people like landlords freaking out because a tenant was suing them and they wanted to move their money without triggering a real or imagined $10,000 threshold. Whoops structuring is illegal straight to jail and we’ll take the money too! Tenant lawsuit still pending lol. All while HSBC completely undermined the ‘purity’ of the licit financial system in the tune of billions over many years on behalf of the LITERAL CARTEL. Guys, 9/11 wasn’t that expensive to pull off, and today’s compliance measures wouldnt have flagged those wire transfers, so who is this for? Stigmatizing the whole concept of having money and moving money has been an expensive and unnecessary and fruitless exercise. While increasing the costs of offering a financial service.
      - secfirstmd 6y ago
        Also obfuscating money can be important for an individual's safety. For example for victims of domestic abuse or human rights activists in repressive countries.
        CryptoPunk 6y ago
        Also the safety of individuals against government overreach, like people living in Xinxiang or Hong Kong. Non-political checks on the power of the state, like cash and its electronic corollary, private digital currencies, are needed in case of the failure of the political system to prevent the state from becoming oppressive. An institution like physical cash can be powerful/deeply-embedded enough to survive totalitarian governments.
- neiman 6y ago
  I's a guide on how to pay privately with cryptocurrencies. You should still report and pay tax for private cryptocurrencies. Privacy and tax evasion are not identical..
  - vmception 6y ago
    correct, if the origin is illicit it is money laundering. If the origin is not illicit then its not money laundering. the licit private transactions are indistinguishable from illicit
    - jtbayly 6y ago
      Illicit money that you pay taxes on is generally not problematic, at least to the IRS. You probably still need to worry about other three letter agencies, though, depending on how it is illicit. Edited to add: I’ve heard of drug dealers doing it. Whether it’s true or not I can’t say.
      - dilap 6y ago
        how exactly would one do that (pay taxes on illicit $)? are there public examples of it?
        grandmczeb 6y ago
        According to the IRS[1] "income from illegal activities, such as money from dealing illegal drugs, must be included in your income on Schedule 1 (Form 1040 or 1040-SR), line 8, or on Schedule C (Form 1040 or 1040-SR) if from your self-employment activity." So I guess you'd just count it as "other income" on your 1040. [1] https://www.irs.gov/publications/p17 https://www.irs.gov/publications/p17
        vmception 6y ago
        Thats a trap my guy, you are incriminating yourself when reporting that That’s the point of criminalizing all options
- zelly 6y ago
  "Yes"
  - vmception 6y ago
    “Yesnt”
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
  There are other reasons why someone would want financial privacy other than to commit financial crime, just as there are other reasons why someone would want communication privacy other than to conspire to commit a crime.

dnadler 6y ago

Just to be clear, this is a step by step process for how to launder money, right?

vmception 6y ago
No, as it doesn't detail necessary reintegration into the economy. You will need to offer a service for crypto which you report taxes on. Your "customers" either pay directly in XMR which there is no trail on, or they swap the XMR back for a more likely used cryptocurrency like bitcoin or Ether, and pay you with that. So now it is. In any case as your lawyer might tell you: if the origin is illicit it is money laundering. If the origin is not illicit then its not money laundering. The irony being that it is the onus of the accuser to determine the origin, and if you do it right that is not possible to know in any scenario. Typically money laundering then is a tacked on charge, after other clear evidence is already known, to help ensure a conviction. But really at this point, its probably better if your public resources weren't spent on flagging transactions in the first place, and if the private sector was not burdened with doing this work for the state.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > If the origin is not illicit then its not money laundering It is if done for purposes of e.g. avoiding taxes or purchasing illicit goods. That said, obfuscation per se is not illegal in most jurisdictions.
  - vmception 6y ago
    so like an illicit origin? :) yes, people need to be aware of the universe of illicit origins. When I was working for the US government most of the people indicted under these laws (structuring, avoiding reporting thresholds, and then obfuscation so money laundering) were not terrorists or drug dealers. They were people like landlords freaking out because a tenant was suing them and they wanted to move their money without triggering a real or imagined $10,000 threshold. Whoops structuring is illegal straight to jail and we’ll take the money too! Tenant lawsuit still pending lol. All while HSBC completely undermined the ‘purity’ of the licit financial system in the tune of billions over many years on behalf of the LITERAL CARTEL. Guys, 9/11 wasn’t that expensive to pull off, and today’s compliance measures wouldnt have flagged those wire transfers, so who is this for? Stigmatizing the whole concept of having money and moving money has been an expensive and unnecessary and fruitless exercise. While increasing the costs of offering a financial service.
    - secfirstmd 6y ago
      Also obfuscating money can be important for an individual's safety. For example for victims of domestic abuse or human rights activists in repressive countries.
      - CryptoPunk 6y ago
        Also the safety of individuals against government overreach, like people living in Xinxiang or Hong Kong. Non-political checks on the power of the state, like cash and its electronic corollary, private digital currencies, are needed in case of the failure of the political system to prevent the state from becoming oppressive. An institution like physical cash can be powerful/deeply-embedded enough to survive totalitarian governments.
neiman 6y ago
I's a guide on how to pay privately with cryptocurrencies. You should still report and pay tax for private cryptocurrencies. Privacy and tax evasion are not identical..
- vmception 6y ago
  correct, if the origin is illicit it is money laundering. If the origin is not illicit then its not money laundering. the licit private transactions are indistinguishable from illicit
  - jtbayly 6y ago
    Illicit money that you pay taxes on is generally not problematic, at least to the IRS. You probably still need to worry about other three letter agencies, though, depending on how it is illicit. Edited to add: I’ve heard of drug dealers doing it. Whether it’s true or not I can’t say.
    - dilap 6y ago
      how exactly would one do that (pay taxes on illicit $)? are there public examples of it?
      - grandmczeb 6y ago
        According to the IRS[1] "income from illegal activities, such as money from dealing illegal drugs, must be included in your income on Schedule 1 (Form 1040 or 1040-SR), line 8, or on Schedule C (Form 1040 or 1040-SR) if from your self-employment activity." So I guess you'd just count it as "other income" on your 1040. [1] https://www.irs.gov/publications/p17 https://www.irs.gov/publications/p17
        vmception 6y ago
        Thats a trap my guy, you are incriminating yourself when reporting that That’s the point of criminalizing all options
zelly 6y ago
"Yes"
- vmception 6y ago
  “Yesnt”
CryptoPunk 6y ago
There are other reasons why someone would want financial privacy other than to commit financial crime, just as there are other reasons why someone would want communication privacy other than to conspire to commit a crime.