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> essentially robbing the state where the profit was generated. It's a very interesting line of thinking when a company that produces new value and makes money

> essentially robbing the state where the profit was generated. It's a very interesting line of thinking when a company that produces new value and makes money by providing the value to the customers by voluntary transactions (and regardless their location) somehow is considered a robber of the state that produces nothing.

cool_dude85 6y ago
It's a very interesting line of thinking when a government that allows a company to incorporate, protects the company's physical and intellectual property by force and with a large legal apparatus, enforces the company's contracts, trains the company's workers, is somehow considered a robber when they ask the company to pay taxes.
- Joky 6y ago
  > trains the company's workers How much of these products are designed and built in these Europeans countries though?
- JoshTriplett 6y ago
  > allows a company to incorporate Leaving aside cases of companies that actually have legal entities in a location (such as Apple), the comment that started this sub-thread was about companies that don't necessarily have any nexus in a location, and just provide services to people regardless of where those people are.
- fidelramos 6y ago
  $13b seem to me an outrageous bill for those services. Could we see an itemized bill to make sure we are not overpaying the state? Or is it more like they have the monopoly of violence and we have to pay whatever they want or else?
  - allendoerfer 6y ago
    > Or is it more like they have the monopoly of violence and we have to pay whatever they want or else? You have to switch we and they. We are not Apple, but we are the people of a state.
    - fidelramos 6y ago
      I too have to pay whatever taxes the state determines, so I think "we" is the right pronoun here.
- ghostwriter 6y ago
  Who is "asking" and who is "taking" in the scenario you mention? The whole notion of "allowing to incorporate", in terms of basic freedoms that a modern society is supposed to maintain and protect, contradicts with the freedom of peaceful assembly and the freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions. This form of right should never require a sanction from a state.
Already__Taken 6y ago
Nothing is created in a vacuum, the state produced customers in good health to live long enough to buy shit, enough spare cash to afford it, and enough infrastructure to get it to them as well as educated enough to use it which is the reason that "value" exists at all.
- Funes- 6y ago
  You both formulate good arguments. Nonetheless, there are many countries where one could argue that the customers and infrastructure that make any business viable and profitable exist in spite of the state, and not because of it, rendering taxes a vile theft to benefit a very select group of people with no intention of doing any good with it. In which case, they would be impoverishing society as much as tax-evading companies.
filoeleven 6y ago
Those companies only exist at this enormous scale because of the societies (I.e. nation-states) that grew them. They rely on literal tons of state infrastructure and decades-worth of long-term state programs/planning that foster their growth, and that of the customers who buy their stuff.
- ghostwriter 6y ago
  Oh yes, the state infrastructure, the one that was built by other private companies and paid for by the money taken from other private companies and individuals. Before there is a state there is an individual acting on their own volition to organise the environment around, and to achieve something in their life, without needing a sanction from a state.
- fidelramos 6y ago
  No, huge companies exists because large accumulations of capital put to productive uses allow for better economies of scale, producing better and cheaper services and products, which the public benefits from. Our overgrown states don't foster innovation and wealth, but hinder it.
  - allendoerfer 6y ago
    Who do you think founded SV (and thus Apple) initially?
  - solstice 6y ago
    To address only a tiny sliver of that massively one-sided view of yours: At least in many European countries, publicly-funded universities train the scientific, engineering and managerial talent these corporations need.
    - fidelramos 6y ago
      Of course, the states take so many taxes from its citizens that most of them cannot afford private education or healthcare, they are forced to the monopolistic public services, which are usually more expensive than their private counterparts. I'm not arguing that the states don't give us anything in return for the massive taxes they force upon us, but that what the society as a whole gets in return is much less than what they would get if the state let them had their money instead to spend as they saw fit. There is another poison pill hidden in the public services: because they look free to the economically untrained eye people tend to overuse and overconsume them. That's why you see so many college graduates in careers that end up having no work use, thus becoming wasted human capital. If people had to pay for their education they would see the costs up front and be more efficient with their decisions.
xrd 6y ago
Doesn't the state provide roads for Amazon, and schools for the children of kids employed at the subsidiaries of Apple? I know there are a lot of details in which "state" (of all the bureaucracies) does that, but is Europe somehow exempt from that arrangement? Is your concern with the EU taking this action instead of Ireland? Isn't that going to be a race to the bottom, where "states" try to out do each other in tax breaks? And, if the cynicism is warranted, aren't lowly paid civic employees going to be outgunned by high paid corporate lobbyists in the end?
- ghostwriter 6y ago
  The state doesn't provide roads and services on its own, it neither has the required qulification for building them nor posseses funds to sponsor the required effort. Firstly, it needs to take money from somewhere where a money-represented value already exists in the world and then use it to pay for the work of qualified individuals, that tend to self-organise in private entities. The work always is done and the value always is created by individuals. In a transparent world the state wouldn't be able to claim ownership of any results of the work sponsored by money taken from other private entities with a help of the "or else" incantation.
  - xrd 6y ago
    Ok. If we take that further, the state isn't claiming credit for anything, it's people claiming it on behalf of a magical idea, right? Are there examples of what you are describing happening in the world?
- seppel 6y ago
  > Doesn't the state provide roads for Amazon Amazon is already paying for using the roads, since they are by large toll-roads.
  - xrd 6y ago
    I haven't done the math on that kind of infrastructure project. I would be very curious (and open minded) about seeing an analysis of how payment for roads plays out, especially with toll roads. In the Portland, OR area (where I live) there are zero toll roads. Maybe that's why I am biased to feeling like state funding these projects is necessary. If Amazon (and anyone else that uses them) were paying for them, perhaps I would think differently.
sideeffffect 6y ago
We both know that "robbery" was a figure of speech, but for the sake of the discussion, I can rephrase it another way. Whether state(s) should be in the business of "producing things" is for another debate, but it's not controversial to claim that they should be in the business of taxing things. Now, you can go about taxation the stupid way, collecting unreasonable amount of money from the wrong people/companies for the wrong things. Or you can do it the smart way. CCCTB is the smart way. I'm not that I'm against making money. But making money should be taxed, preferably the smart way.

cool_dude85 6y ago

It's a very interesting line of thinking when a government that allows a company to incorporate, protects the company's physical and intellectual property by force and with a large legal apparatus, enforces the company's contracts, trains the company's workers, is somehow considered a robber when they ask the company to pay taxes.

Joky 6y ago
> trains the company's workers How much of these products are designed and built in these Europeans countries though?
JoshTriplett 6y ago
> allows a company to incorporate Leaving aside cases of companies that actually have legal entities in a location (such as Apple), the comment that started this sub-thread was about companies that don't necessarily have any nexus in a location, and just provide services to people regardless of where those people are.
fidelramos 6y ago
$13b seem to me an outrageous bill for those services. Could we see an itemized bill to make sure we are not overpaying the state? Or is it more like they have the monopoly of violence and we have to pay whatever they want or else?
- allendoerfer 6y ago
  > Or is it more like they have the monopoly of violence and we have to pay whatever they want or else? You have to switch we and they. We are not Apple, but we are the people of a state.
  - fidelramos 6y ago
    I too have to pay whatever taxes the state determines, so I think "we" is the right pronoun here.
ghostwriter 6y ago
Who is "asking" and who is "taking" in the scenario you mention? The whole notion of "allowing to incorporate", in terms of basic freedoms that a modern society is supposed to maintain and protect, contradicts with the freedom of peaceful assembly and the freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions. This form of right should never require a sanction from a state.

Already__Taken 6y ago

Nothing is created in a vacuum, the state produced customers in good health to live long enough to buy shit, enough spare cash to afford it, and enough infrastructure to get it to them as well as educated enough to use it which is the reason that "value" exists at all.

Funes- 6y ago
You both formulate good arguments. Nonetheless, there are many countries where one could argue that the customers and infrastructure that make any business viable and profitable exist in spite of the state, and not because of it, rendering taxes a vile theft to benefit a very select group of people with no intention of doing any good with it. In which case, they would be impoverishing society as much as tax-evading companies.

filoeleven 6y ago

Those companies only exist at this enormous scale because of the societies (I.e. nation-states) that grew them. They rely on literal tons of state infrastructure and decades-worth of long-term state programs/planning that foster their growth, and that of the customers who buy their stuff.

ghostwriter 6y ago
Oh yes, the state infrastructure, the one that was built by other private companies and paid for by the money taken from other private companies and individuals. Before there is a state there is an individual acting on their own volition to organise the environment around, and to achieve something in their life, without needing a sanction from a state.
fidelramos 6y ago
No, huge companies exists because large accumulations of capital put to productive uses allow for better economies of scale, producing better and cheaper services and products, which the public benefits from. Our overgrown states don't foster innovation and wealth, but hinder it.
- allendoerfer 6y ago
  Who do you think founded SV (and thus Apple) initially?
- solstice 6y ago
  To address only a tiny sliver of that massively one-sided view of yours: At least in many European countries, publicly-funded universities train the scientific, engineering and managerial talent these corporations need.
  - fidelramos 6y ago
    Of course, the states take so many taxes from its citizens that most of them cannot afford private education or healthcare, they are forced to the monopolistic public services, which are usually more expensive than their private counterparts. I'm not arguing that the states don't give us anything in return for the massive taxes they force upon us, but that what the society as a whole gets in return is much less than what they would get if the state let them had their money instead to spend as they saw fit. There is another poison pill hidden in the public services: because they look free to the economically untrained eye people tend to overuse and overconsume them. That's why you see so many college graduates in careers that end up having no work use, thus becoming wasted human capital. If people had to pay for their education they would see the costs up front and be more efficient with their decisions.

xrd 6y ago

Doesn't the state provide roads for Amazon, and schools for the children of kids employed at the subsidiaries of Apple? I know there are a lot of details in which "state" (of all the bureaucracies) does that, but is Europe somehow exempt from that arrangement? Is your concern with the EU taking this action instead of Ireland? Isn't that going to be a race to the bottom, where "states" try to out do each other in tax breaks? And, if the cynicism is warranted, aren't lowly paid civic employees going to be outgunned by high paid corporate lobbyists in the end?

ghostwriter 6y ago
The state doesn't provide roads and services on its own, it neither has the required qulification for building them nor posseses funds to sponsor the required effort. Firstly, it needs to take money from somewhere where a money-represented value already exists in the world and then use it to pay for the work of qualified individuals, that tend to self-organise in private entities. The work always is done and the value always is created by individuals. In a transparent world the state wouldn't be able to claim ownership of any results of the work sponsored by money taken from other private entities with a help of the "or else" incantation.
- xrd 6y ago
  Ok. If we take that further, the state isn't claiming credit for anything, it's people claiming it on behalf of a magical idea, right? Are there examples of what you are describing happening in the world?
seppel 6y ago
> Doesn't the state provide roads for Amazon Amazon is already paying for using the roads, since they are by large toll-roads.
- xrd 6y ago
  I haven't done the math on that kind of infrastructure project. I would be very curious (and open minded) about seeing an analysis of how payment for roads plays out, especially with toll roads. In the Portland, OR area (where I live) there are zero toll roads. Maybe that's why I am biased to feeling like state funding these projects is necessary. If Amazon (and anyone else that uses them) were paying for them, perhaps I would think differently.

sideeffffect 6y ago

We both know that "robbery" was a figure of speech, but for the sake of the discussion, I can rephrase it another way. Whether state(s) should be in the business of "producing things" is for another debate, but it's not controversial to claim that they should be in the business of taxing things. Now, you can go about taxation the stupid way, collecting unreasonable amount of money from the wrong people/companies for the wrong things. Or you can do it the smart way. CCCTB is the smart way. I'm not that I'm against making money. But making money should be taxed, preferably the smart way.