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ActivityPub Could Be the Future
- fiddlerwoaroof 6y agoOne thing that sort of annoys me about ActivityPub is that, as far as I can tell, there's no good way to have a statically generated ActivityPub feed that can be followed by Mastodon users
- Kye 6y agoI've heard it's technically possible with the protocol, but the way it's typically implemented prevents use with static sites. I'm not sure of the details. I would like to see all the major AP implementations add support for following RSS feeds. That might even be a better way to do it.
- phoe-krk 6y agoThere exist RSS-to-ActivityPub services that solve this issue.
- berkes 6y agoI'm not familiar enough with the intricacies of your case, but it certainly is possible. E.g. https://github.com/ufosc/TheIsolator https://github.com/ufosc/TheIsolator is a way to publish your static site updates, on deploy, to your AP followers. I've seen similar tools/attempts for Hugo and Cobalt.
- PersonalOps 6y agoI came here looking for a way to do exactly this, but it looks like Thelsolator is unfinished with the Go code only printing "Hello World!"
- berkes 6y agoAre you referring to https://codeberg.org/jlelse/hugo-activitystreams https://codeberg.org/jlelse/hugo-activitystreams for "Go"? Description here: https://jlelse.blog/dev/activitystreams-hugo/ https://jlelse.blog/dev/activitystreams-hugo/. I have no experience with this but I have experimented with TheIsolator for my jekyll blog. Its simplicity appeals to me.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- corty 6y agoMastodon is a foam of filter bubbles. If the rest of the ActivityPubIverse looks like that it will be even worse than Twitter or Facebook in the bubble-induced problems.
- bastawhiz 6y agoIs your complaint that federated social media has needed to block content such that it's now worse than non-federated social media? Wasn't the promise of federated social media to solve (at least in part) this very problem?
- posguy 6y agoOP is complaining in part about the instance blocks (eg: most instances block FreeSpeechExtremist.com and instances that carry child porn) and users blocking other users across instances. If these tools were not available, most instances would be overwhelmed with a firehose of garbage content.
- bastawhiz 6y agoIsn't that objectively a good thing? The whole point of federation is to give each instance control over what is allowed and is not allowed. Surely the root of the complaint cannot be "everyone must consume and accept all content," because anyone can already create their own instance if they feel they're being limited? Or is it more simply "I'm not allowed to spread my views in places where they're unwelcome"? The latter is a complaint about human nature, not about the technology.
- corty 6y agoIt is that isolated bubbles generate environments spreading and reinforcing dangerous information. E.g. spreading alternative medicine cancer "cures" will kill people. I believe everyone needs to be exposed to different views once in a while.
- 6y ago
- 0xy 6y ago>As I write this, Facebook has just lost 25% of its share price on the announcement that it expects weak growth. Facebook is less than 5% down from its all time high. Separately, if I'm understanding Mastodon right then it's worse than centralization. In my experience, admins and moderators of smaller communities (subreddits and Discord channels) are substantially worse than centralized rule enforcement. People get banned from subreddits without even posting in them. Massive censorship is common as well. For example, during the Pulse nightclub shooting the news was totally absent on reddit's frontpage due to widescale censorship in multiple major subreddits. It was prominent on both Twitter and Facebook though.
- Proven 6y agoI have no doubts that on average admins and mods are worse. But that's on average. There are many instances and you can have your own. Non-banned users can't amplify message like they could on Twitter, but they can't be silenced either.
- sp332 6y agoit's worse than centralization Since anyone can just stand up their own instance and post whatever they want, it's significantly more censorship-resistant than a centralized service.
- yborg 6y ago>I don't use X, but I'm now going to tell you why X is shit based on "my experience" with something totally different You don't like the mod policies of a Mastodon instance, you find another one. You don't like the mod policies of a centralized platform, you're off the platform entirely. You can view the vast majority of the Fediverse feed, including poorly-peered domains by being on 2 or 3 instances.
- 0xy 6y ago(censorship practices of centralized platform mod team) < (average censorship practice of some power hungry mod in a small community) This has always been true everywhere.
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- dpc_pw 6y agoNo it won't. All these federated protocols are doomed to die out of spam, centralization, censorship churn. People really have to watch what Urbit is doing and understand why. Anything less is insufficient.
- olah_1 6y agoActivityPub isn’t great, but anything is going to look bad when compared to a utopian pipe dream. Im looking forward to a better comparison in Q4 or Q1 2021 when Urbit is more usable for regular people though. As of now, I don’t suspect that anyone will pay $10 for a VPS and $5 for (reliable) star service. It should be noted that when I critiqued ActivityPub here a couple months ago, a main developer of the spec was very supportive and already on top of the improvements that I was hoping for (such as being less reliant on servers, more true decentralization, etc)
- riffic 6y agoUrbit isn't going to be anything. It's the TempleOS of this space.
- rimjongun 6y agoAs somebody who went to all the trouble of: 1) Converting cash to Bitcoin 2) Transferring the Bitcoin to my browser plug-in wallet that was the only approved way to pay for the “planet” or whatever 2) Purchasing the planet and somehow linking my ID with their registrar/account info 3) Downloading and trying to installing the software despite several dependency issues with the stock Ubuntu (or whatever they recommend) VM. 4) Finally getting it working, being greeted by a truly bizarre user interface, I figured out how to get into chat. Joining the main channel, my screen was flooded with out of order chat messages. In a project that’s been around since 2012. I was really excited to experience the new wave in computing. I found smoke and mirrors. Cool idea though.
- dpc_pw 6y agoIt's not a pipe dream. I'm using Urbit on a daily basis, and this year I'm having a blast with it - in particular because of high barrier to entry, the conversations there are really great with the most geeky and motivated people. Lots of features are there, it got faster, more stable. There's no need to pay for anything. Urbit planets are usable from desktop, and don't really need to be turned on all the time. Urbit should have no problem eventually running from a phone, which is like 99% online device for me anyway. Federation of services running on Unix machines is just not going to work. That's how Internet used to work, and it was not practical so it degenerated into what we have right now.
- simula67 6y agoIt is not possible to have a decentralized meeting place. Meeting places are supposed to be centralized, that is their point. Many people say that they should consider Mastodon like email, but even then, there must be a forum where people need to meet in order to find like minded people and collect their email addresses. The moment such a forum develops, powerful people whose power is threatened by the meeting of such people will attack and destroy these meeting places. This will stop dissidents from getting their message out. It was just a happy accident that town squares (where people were forced to come in order to buy and sell things) were owned by the government. Therefore a restriction on the government to stop it from restricting people to voice new ideas would mean that people would be exposed to new ideas. In this way, people were "forced" to consider new ideas or starve (If you did not go into the marketplace - which hosted the town square, you may starve as you could not get tomatoes or whatever. But if you did go, you will have to hear new ideas). Today the town squares are Twitter, Facebook etc which are privately owned. If you cannot be on Twitter, Facebook etc you are screaming into the void. No one will hear your ideas. This will make the world less dynamic and less responsive to changing situations. We are screwed.
- rsa25519 6y agoAnother problem is when town square hosts are held responsible for what their participants do and say. Which is sometimes understandable. But it can be messy
- apatters 6y agoSure the town square has had value throughout history. But no one ever lived their entire life in it until now. They spent most of their time outside the town square with their friends and family. It's a weird accident of information capitalism that we all signed up on platforms to talk with our friends and then those platforms gradually morphed into hyper-engaged outrage factories where you're getting sucked into political arguments with strangers. What's striking to me about HN discussions of ActivityPub being the future is that the future is already here. The resistance already exists. Do you not know anyone who participates in a semi-private Telegram group or Discord instance? Especially when you talk to younger folk they're acutely aware of how the behemoth, wide-open networks like Twitter and FB are dangerous places to be yourself. They don't participate heavily in these networks. They are already moving to loosely moderated, semi-closed communities on other platforms. These platforms have millions of users. Now in light of that fact, Mastodon's role in the discussion seems to me to simply be "here is a similar solution which some techies are really into, it has federation which some of them think could be a killer feature, though it isn't yet." If an individual is concerned about the effect of Twitter on society the best thing to do is quit using it, move to semi-open, semi-moderated platforms, and encourage everyone else to do the same. I participate in Discord and Mastodon instances, I've cut back my FB usage and I wouldn't touch Twitter for a million bucks. This digital town square bullshit needs to do a lot better to earn my engagement. I'll just keep going to the local pub for that because at least I get to drink a beer when I'm there and people are usually more civil when they have to say things to my face.
- rsa25519 6y agoA good rule of thumb: Centralization has the optimal best-case. Decentralization has the optimal worst-case. For example, Bitcoin, while robust and reliable, is slow. Discord, while sometimes down, is generally fast and featureful.
- gsich 6y agoThat comparison doesn't hold.
- alwillis 6y agoFor example, Bitcoin, while robust and reliable, is slow. For normal, everyday transactions, the Lightning Network is what people use, where transactions take only seconds: https://medium.com/@The1Brand7/lightning-faq-67bd2b957d70 https://medium.com/@The1Brand7/lightning-faq-67bd2b957d70
- dependenttypes 6y ago> Discord, while sometimes down, is generally fast and featureful. No, Discord is slow due to all the weird js crap that they have put in it, even with 8GB ram I have trouble running it alongside other software (both in electron and on firefox). It is also not featureful, you can't disable image previewing for example.
- dependenttypes 6y agoMy issue with ActivityPub is that it is yet another overengineered specification by w3c that somehow despite being a bloated mess manages to miss important features (such as end-to-end encryption for DMs or end-to-end authentication, now you can have admins forging posts in the names of their users and/or reading their DMs, which is not that big of a threat for the average person when you are in a big semi-serious platform like twitter but it is when your admin is some random dude online). In addition it depends on stuff that are universally despised, such as JSON-LD, and it forces federation down your throat (you can't use it in a distributed way like bittorrent for example, your user is binded to the domain name of your instance).
- rapnie 6y agoI think you are off the mark and reposted an article explaining how the spec should be interpreted [0]. If the spec had added auth, authz, e2ee and such, then it had been overengineered. They were left out intentionally because of the complexity involved in decentralized environments. Something a bunch of other specs-in-the-making are struggling with for years. And things that may be adopted in vNext versions of AP. There is nothing as far as I know that precludes AP from being used in pure p2p applications, other than that p2p software in general knows more challenges than federated ones. And the spec is written such that any dev can treat the message format as plain JSON. They only need to add a fixed @context property, so it can be processed as JSON-LD by those who want to use the additional power that offers. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23857644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23857644
- rapnie 6y agoA lot of negativity in this thread. Not earned, imho. I see Mastodon being mentioned a lot (and sometimes Pleroma) as if that is the only application to access the fediverse. ActivityPub is still in early stages of adoption. It is great that these apps have proven themselves in production (with a couple million users) based on a v1.0 of the spec where intentially a lot of things were left out, like authz, account discovery, search, etc. Right now, based on experience and with a good base of knowledgeable AP devs, the spec is evolving. With its flexibility and JSON-LD at its base federated applications can be created for any number of domains. And this is happening. Almost every week there are new project announcements that adopt AP in some way. They will not all federate with Mastodon from the start, and there are many challenges to be tackled to make a seamless fediverse integration smooth sailing. Here is a good AP project watchlist: https://git.feneas.org/feneas/fediverse/-/wikis/watchlist-for-activitypub-apps https://git.feneas.org/feneas/fediverse/-/wikis/watchlist-fo... There is an online AP conf in October for those interested: https://conf.activitypub.rocks/#home https://conf.activitypub.rocks/#home For questions you can go to these forums: https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/ https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/ https://talk.feneas.org/ https://talk.feneas.org/
- thejohnconway 6y agoAs someone who has tried to implement ActivityPub (for my personal site), I think the negativity is largely justified. In my opinion, ActivityPub is way too complicated, and federating is just too hard to do for smaller projects. You mention that there are many new projects – this has been the case for a while. Last time I looked, nearly all of them had failed/stopped/paused before actually getting federation working. The test suite is down, and has been for at least a year: https://test.activitypub.rocks https://test.activitypub.rocks I think that ActivityPub should have started out far simpler, and it should have been in reach of hobbyist developers. Something probably closer to RSS, with verify-from-source rather than cryptographically signed posts. Just my experience, obviously. I would love to be able to write and run my own little Twitter-like instance that people can subscribe to, but I can't because ActivityPub was too difficult for me to get working.
- gargron 6y ago