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If someone isn't working on something in their spare time, it's a big red flag to me. You need to have the hunger. I'm more turned on by what you have in your

If someone isn't working on something in their spare time, it's a big red flag to me. You need to have the hunger. I'm more turned on by what you have in your github account than whether or not you can do a binary search in your choice of languages.

Retric 16y ago
That's the sort of thing that works just fine in a small company that only needs a few people but, it does not scale. PS: All of the great developers I have worked with are both old (50+) and have a life outside of code. Spend some time around people with Genius IQ's and 30+ years of experience and you rethink just how important passion really is.
inaequitas 16y ago
I agree that this is the most valuable way to judge a candidate, but unfortunately I don't think it would work for most students and most companies (been through it all) because: a) students have a fair bit of school work to do, and: b) most companies can't afford the kind of talent that finds the time to work on other projects outside their normal coursework. Now, for Google that might not be the case — they certainly should be trying to find the top talent they can get their hands on. All the more reason to ask about the extra projects, GitHub account, code samples etc. But just as many people, when they're students, don't appreciate or value the extra work you talk about, they won't do it when they work for Google and are tasked with hiring others. If all you spent time studying were algorithms and C, you won't appreciate the value of open-source contributions and feverishly learning new languages as much as someone else. And you won't hire based on that. And yes, that's disappointing.
- spacemanaki 16y ago
  Students can (and should?) put the school work on Github or Bitbucket or whatever. Plus side to that is higher chance of getting to look back in later years. I desperately regret losing track of some old projects, just for missing out on poking fun at my undergrad naivete.
  - inaequitas 16y ago
    Definitely, but unfortunately a lot of one-off code meant for school assignments isn't valuable for anything else. And I wouldn't want GitHub to be littered with random things that aren't — and don't need to be — FLOSS projects, but instead serve as résumé pieces.
kenjackson 16y ago
In my spare time I'm working on making the next million for my company. Oh, when I'm not working for my company? I'm with my family or friends. I feel like the energy I could spend doing a side project is probably better spent getting these last two features in, or fixing those lingering bugs, or getting that automation solid, etc.... It seems really odd to actually penalize someone who leaves it all on the floor. It's like a basketball player saying, "If you really want to see my skills, come to the park. The NBA is just my paycheck." -- is that the guy you want on your team? The guy who will tell his next employer, "Company XYZ paid the bills, but my real cool work is this GitHub project I did on the side".
- slashdot 16y ago
  I think you make a good point. But I also think that in high school, yeah, I want the guy who spends a whole lot of time in the park playing ball, because he's the guy who's gonna make it into the NBA. It takes a big time investment to get really good at something. So, do senior devs need to have a github account? Maybe. Should a junior dev? Definitely.
- sminnee 16y ago
  Your analogy breaks down because the NBA is televised. If you're allowed to show some of your daytime work to an interviewer, by all means do that.
  - kenjackson 16y ago
    Only part of sport is televised. You don't see camp or practice, which is a big part of the game too. The game you watch on TV is like the shipping product. The code is like the practices, camp, training, etc... My point is the lead dev for Angry Birds ends up at your desk and it seems almost pompous to say, "Where's your GitHub app?" This person broke his neck to ship, upgrade, and maintain a product that you can look at (the NBA game), yet a lot of people still seem to be saying, "w/o seeing your code (your practice sessions) I need the GitHub repo" (I need to watch you play at the park). I guess as an employer this works to my advantage if more startups require GitHub accounts, since I can pick off proven talent that doesn't have this requirement. So yeah... it's a great idea! :-) EDIT: And I should add that I was responding to someone who said that if you aren't working on something in your spare time that this is a red flag. So according to that poster, simply having great code from my "daytime" job isn't sufficient. Kobe Bryant NBA footage isn't sufficient. If he doesn't also play pickup games there must be a problem?!
biot 16y ago
I think it depends on what someone's day job is. If their day job involves really interesting programming challenges which are interesting and require creativity to solve, a programmer's passion and creativity can be invested in that. If, however, a programmer's day job is maintaining a legacy system that doesn't involve a lot of creativity then there's a greater likelihood that they have untapped passion which will express itself in a side project... and ultimately with them finding a new job that does require creativity. Judging someone based on their side projects is the wrong approach -- judge them on their creativity and passion. Some are fortunate to have a job which gives them the ability to be creative and passionate during work hours. Others aren't as fortunate and need to express their creativity and passion outside of work hours. The big red flag to not hire is when someone has neither creativity nor passion inside or outside of work hours.

Retric 16y ago

That's the sort of thing that works just fine in a small company that only needs a few people but, it does not scale. PS: All of the great developers I have worked with are both old (50+) and have a life outside of code. Spend some time around people with Genius IQ's and 30+ years of experience and you rethink just how important passion really is.

inaequitas 16y ago

I agree that this is the most valuable way to judge a candidate, but unfortunately I don't think it would work for most students and most companies (been through it all) because: a) students have a fair bit of school work to do, and: b) most companies can't afford the kind of talent that finds the time to work on other projects outside their normal coursework. Now, for Google that might not be the case — they certainly should be trying to find the top talent they can get their hands on. All the more reason to ask about the extra projects, GitHub account, code samples etc. But just as many people, when they're students, don't appreciate or value the extra work you talk about, they won't do it when they work for Google and are tasked with hiring others. If all you spent time studying were algorithms and C, you won't appreciate the value of open-source contributions and feverishly learning new languages as much as someone else. And you won't hire based on that. And yes, that's disappointing.

spacemanaki 16y ago
Students can (and should?) put the school work on Github or Bitbucket or whatever. Plus side to that is higher chance of getting to look back in later years. I desperately regret losing track of some old projects, just for missing out on poking fun at my undergrad naivete.
- inaequitas 16y ago
  Definitely, but unfortunately a lot of one-off code meant for school assignments isn't valuable for anything else. And I wouldn't want GitHub to be littered with random things that aren't — and don't need to be — FLOSS projects, but instead serve as résumé pieces.

kenjackson 16y ago

In my spare time I'm working on making the next million for my company. Oh, when I'm not working for my company? I'm with my family or friends. I feel like the energy I could spend doing a side project is probably better spent getting these last two features in, or fixing those lingering bugs, or getting that automation solid, etc.... It seems really odd to actually penalize someone who leaves it all on the floor. It's like a basketball player saying, "If you really want to see my skills, come to the park. The NBA is just my paycheck." -- is that the guy you want on your team? The guy who will tell his next employer, "Company XYZ paid the bills, but my real cool work is this GitHub project I did on the side".

slashdot 16y ago
I think you make a good point. But I also think that in high school, yeah, I want the guy who spends a whole lot of time in the park playing ball, because he's the guy who's gonna make it into the NBA. It takes a big time investment to get really good at something. So, do senior devs need to have a github account? Maybe. Should a junior dev? Definitely.
sminnee 16y ago
Your analogy breaks down because the NBA is televised. If you're allowed to show some of your daytime work to an interviewer, by all means do that.
- kenjackson 16y ago
  Only part of sport is televised. You don't see camp or practice, which is a big part of the game too. The game you watch on TV is like the shipping product. The code is like the practices, camp, training, etc... My point is the lead dev for Angry Birds ends up at your desk and it seems almost pompous to say, "Where's your GitHub app?" This person broke his neck to ship, upgrade, and maintain a product that you can look at (the NBA game), yet a lot of people still seem to be saying, "w/o seeing your code (your practice sessions) I need the GitHub repo" (I need to watch you play at the park). I guess as an employer this works to my advantage if more startups require GitHub accounts, since I can pick off proven talent that doesn't have this requirement. So yeah... it's a great idea! :-) EDIT: And I should add that I was responding to someone who said that if you aren't working on something in your spare time that this is a red flag. So according to that poster, simply having great code from my "daytime" job isn't sufficient. Kobe Bryant NBA footage isn't sufficient. If he doesn't also play pickup games there must be a problem?!

biot 16y ago

I think it depends on what someone's day job is. If their day job involves really interesting programming challenges which are interesting and require creativity to solve, a programmer's passion and creativity can be invested in that. If, however, a programmer's day job is maintaining a legacy system that doesn't involve a lot of creativity then there's a greater likelihood that they have untapped passion which will express itself in a side project... and ultimately with them finding a new job that does require creativity. Judging someone based on their side projects is the wrong approach -- judge them on their creativity and passion. Some are fortunate to have a job which gives them the ability to be creative and passionate during work hours. Others aren't as fortunate and need to express their creativity and passion outside of work hours. The big red flag to not hire is when someone has neither creativity nor passion inside or outside of work hours.