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I've definitely repeated that line in the past to justify tech industry interviewing practices - but sometimes it goes beyond "setting a high bar" to something

by candu 6y ago

I've definitely repeated that line in the past to justify tech industry interviewing practices - but sometimes it goes beyond "setting a high bar" to something more toxic: an interviewer using the interview as a chance to show off how smart _they_ are, rather than assess the candidate; deliberately creating high-stakes "pressure cooker" environments because, you know, that's just how we work here and they should get used to it; and so on. These things then get rolled into the same justification: after all, we're an exclusive club of ultra-smart 10x ninja pirate Jedi, which of course means we should have the default assumption that others don't belong in this club. I wonder now: for every "bad one" not let through by this sort of process, how many other "good ones" look at it and say "no thanks"? How many hear about this sort of hazing and are dissuaded from applying in the first place? How many experience it one too many times and just quit the industry altogether? How many of those "bad ones" are even objectively bad, and not just having a bad day or intimidated by a process rife with both intentional and unintentional hostility? In other words: are we actually assessing what we claim to assess with _any_ predictive accuracy, and is the collateral damage to company reputation and the pool of available candidates - a damage often hidden to the individual companies that impose this process - even worth it?

RogerL 6y ago
I think it goes far beyond that. I'd bet dollars to donuts that you will find both protected and unprotected groups over represented in the false negative pile. Do women have more test anxiety then men? If so, guess what your process is selecting for. Do minorities have more self doubt than majorities. Same thing. And so on. And that doesn't address the file drawer effect. I'm 54. I can code a binary tree, hash table or what have you, if I have to, but I am not as practiced as somebody fresh out of school, because that heavy lifting is done by libraries, and I'm busy contributing original mathematical algorithms that no one ever asks about because they don't have the background to understand the explanation. So I don't go on FAANG type interviews. I know I will fail, and if I don't my offer will be predicated on that apparently lower performance. At best I will have an utterly miserable experience. So I self select myself out, mostly on age. This is not good, for so many reasons.
- jlokier 6y ago
  > I can code a binary tree, hash table or what have you, if I have to, but I am not as practiced as somebody fresh out of school, because that heavy lifting is done by libraries, and I'm busy contributing original mathematical algorithms that no one ever asks about because they don't have the background to understand the explanation. This made me chuckle, because it's absolutely how it is. Some other comments here talk about how nobody creates new algorithms these days unless they are a researcher. But it's not true at all! Like you I'm creating new algorithms and other tricky techniques all the time, but I'm not fresh on the stuff I learned at school... or so I thought. I have been really surprised to find some screening interviews recently asked me shockingly trivial questions. So simple that I stumbled over myself trying to simplify the answers, thinking "I know too much about this topic and need to keep it simple", and "can these questions really distinguish candidates?". I did the TripleByte online test recently and found the questions much simpler than I expected, including those in languages I've never seen before. That is not TripleByte's reputation. I see people writing about how difficult they found the questions. (Admission: I didn't score all 5s, but I can't figure out why unless it's timing as I think I answered them all correctly.) So I'm thinking, perhaps it's not so bad, people just make it sound bad because there's a wide variation in people's knowledge, abilities and expectations. If you are thinking you might apply for something like a FAANG or other hard-reputation company, and feeling put off by the horror stories, I would say, just take a look at the old stuff a bit for a refresh, then give it a try and you might be pleasantly surprised to find their reputation is because people less skilled than yourself found it hard. Their "hard" might not be hard for you. You'll probably still fail the interview if it's a FAANG because they are so selective, but I would bet my dollars to donuts that it would be more refreshing than miserable if you're not attached to passing. I know your point isn't about yourself, it's about bias in hiring, including bias due to perception by the candidates, but I wanted to address that side point about feeling there's no point applying. That sounds like anxiety to me. (I have it too, I'm trying to get over it.)
- invalidOrTaken 6y ago
  >And that doesn't address the file drawer effect. I'm 54. I can code a binary tree, hash table or what have you, if I have to, but I am not as practiced as somebody fresh out of school, because that heavy lifting is done by libraries, and I'm busy contributing original mathematical algorithms that no one ever asks about because they don't have the background to understand the explanation. Ooohhhh this is frustrating. Nothing is more frustrating than telling an interviewer about something cool you've done, and realizing they don't understand, but also don't care.

by candu 6y ago

RogerL 6y ago

I think it goes far beyond that. I'd bet dollars to donuts that you will find both protected and unprotected groups over represented in the false negative pile. Do women have more test anxiety then men? If so, guess what your process is selecting for. Do minorities have more self doubt than majorities. Same thing. And so on. And that doesn't address the file drawer effect. I'm 54. I can code a binary tree, hash table or what have you, if I have to, but I am not as practiced as somebody fresh out of school, because that heavy lifting is done by libraries, and I'm busy contributing original mathematical algorithms that no one ever asks about because they don't have the background to understand the explanation. So I don't go on FAANG type interviews. I know I will fail, and if I don't my offer will be predicated on that apparently lower performance. At best I will have an utterly miserable experience. So I self select myself out, mostly on age. This is not good, for so many reasons.

jlokier 6y ago
> I can code a binary tree, hash table or what have you, if I have to, but I am not as practiced as somebody fresh out of school, because that heavy lifting is done by libraries, and I'm busy contributing original mathematical algorithms that no one ever asks about because they don't have the background to understand the explanation. This made me chuckle, because it's absolutely how it is. Some other comments here talk about how nobody creates new algorithms these days unless they are a researcher. But it's not true at all! Like you I'm creating new algorithms and other tricky techniques all the time, but I'm not fresh on the stuff I learned at school... or so I thought. I have been really surprised to find some screening interviews recently asked me shockingly trivial questions. So simple that I stumbled over myself trying to simplify the answers, thinking "I know too much about this topic and need to keep it simple", and "can these questions really distinguish candidates?". I did the TripleByte online test recently and found the questions much simpler than I expected, including those in languages I've never seen before. That is not TripleByte's reputation. I see people writing about how difficult they found the questions. (Admission: I didn't score all 5s, but I can't figure out why unless it's timing as I think I answered them all correctly.) So I'm thinking, perhaps it's not so bad, people just make it sound bad because there's a wide variation in people's knowledge, abilities and expectations. If you are thinking you might apply for something like a FAANG or other hard-reputation company, and feeling put off by the horror stories, I would say, just take a look at the old stuff a bit for a refresh, then give it a try and you might be pleasantly surprised to find their reputation is because people less skilled than yourself found it hard. Their "hard" might not be hard for you. You'll probably still fail the interview if it's a FAANG because they are so selective, but I would bet my dollars to donuts that it would be more refreshing than miserable if you're not attached to passing. I know your point isn't about yourself, it's about bias in hiring, including bias due to perception by the candidates, but I wanted to address that side point about feeling there's no point applying. That sounds like anxiety to me. (I have it too, I'm trying to get over it.)
invalidOrTaken 6y ago
>And that doesn't address the file drawer effect. I'm 54. I can code a binary tree, hash table or what have you, if I have to, but I am not as practiced as somebody fresh out of school, because that heavy lifting is done by libraries, and I'm busy contributing original mathematical algorithms that no one ever asks about because they don't have the background to understand the explanation. Ooohhhh this is frustrating. Nothing is more frustrating than telling an interviewer about something cool you've done, and realizing they don't understand, but also don't care.